Production Double-Din VGA Touchscreen in the making! - Page 2

2k1Toaster · 01-29-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

]
REQUIRED:
1. Software accessible buttons with BACKLIGHT (at least 6 please). Something such as this: http://www.rockwellcollins.com/ecat/gs/graphics/pfd.jpg (notice how the buttons are positioned so the on-screen menus can line up with them). Here’s another decent looking design: http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/405567...1156943447.jpg
2. >= 400 nits brightness (or transflective option)*
3. Double DIN compatibility - no need for dash modification.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

Nice to have:
1. Black finish.

or better a removeable interchangeable faceplate cover for different options such as black/silver/wood grain/aluminium/carbon fiber to match well.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

2. Windows CE with available BSP as done by VIA.

useless for a screen

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

3. SD or CF slot to allow easy upgrading/maintenance.
4. Non-motorized.
5. Built-in USB port.

non-motorized would be ok since the drive wont be in use all the time.
I agree with the built in USB drive and if there is room left over then maybe a memory car reader under the faceplate (you would have to move he front away if not motorizes or push a button to get to them so that they stay free of dust and other crap.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

Will you be running Windows CE? Do you have a processor in mind?

This is a screen. Not a PC.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

Also, if it's possible, I'd like to have the ability to run my application on the device itself, as opposed to using an external PC (save a bit on total costs).

I can guarentee you that this route will be much more expensive. Small device means small computer. Small is expensive. Small is not hardware upgradeable. Small is not easy to troubleshoot.

If you want a comparison, look in the mp3car store and see what a complete fully put together CarPC runs with a 7" screen. Now look at how much the Infill all in 1 unit costs. There is a big difference. And it has already been done with great expense.

2k1Toaster · 01-29-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by vrwired

Remember stick with the least common denominator. If you stay Native Double din.. everyone can use/buy it.. If you ad a quarter inch.. not everyone can or will buy it. Simple math.. And to the people who say it is alright.... understand that that decision disables the use of the system for people that can't or won't cut the dash... remember the dash mod may be OK in the car you have now, but think about the future, you may get a car that you can't mod your dash, and then you would not even be able to use the system...

If it stays native than EVERYONE can use it.. All over the world..

The world works because of standards....
Stick to them... and we can all work on keepin our tolerances tight and clean...

Please... Seriously...

now if we could only persuede the US to use the metric system, the world would be a better place! I hate the stupid 12/3/5280 system! 10/100/1000 I like!

DarquePervert · 01-29-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by 2k1Toaster

now if we could only persuede the US to use the metric system, the world would be a better place! I hate the stupid 12/3/5280 system! 10/100/1000 I like!

I todl you to quit giving out Frodo's phone number!

2k1Toaster · 01-29-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by DarquePervert

I todl you to quit giving out Frodo's phone number!

pyros · 01-29-2007, 06:42 PM

If you're going to do it, do it right and make it the standard size. Don't do it half assed, require modifications, etc... just to save $100 on the final cost. As was already said, the good part of this screen was the direct bolt in. I sure as hell will not cut my dash by 1/4" to fit a 7" double din motorized screen.

justin146 · 01-29-2007, 06:58 PM

to me, having to cut the dash defeats the whole purpose of the double-din LCD. If you are cutting the dash, you might as well save alot of money and get a normal 7".

Aaaron16 · 01-29-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by 2k1Toaster

useless for a screen...

...This is a screen. Not a PC...

...I can guarentee you that this route will be much more expensive. Small device means small computer. Small is expensive. Small is not hardware upgradeable. Small is not easy to troubleshoot.

If you want a comparison, look in the mp3car store and see what a complete fully put together CarPC runs with a 7" screen. Now look at how much the Infill all in 1 unit costs. There is a big difference. And it has already been done with great expense.

PCs don't run Windows CE (they can, but then they usually aren't called PCs anymore). CE is for embedded devices that can have very limited hardware components. Also, I'm not saying it must run CE, just that if it does, it would be nice to have the BSP available.

2k1Toaster · 01-29-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

PCs don't run Windows CE (they can, but then they usually aren't called PCs anymore). CE is for embedded devices that can have very limited hardware components. Also, I'm not saying it must run CE, just that if it does, it would be nice to have the BSP available.

I know. It probably will have a CE chip in it to interface the radio through USB and the button presses through software, but the underneath shouldn't matter. There will be a BSP probably but not user accessable and it shouldn't be. THere should be a clear modular feel to devices. A screen should be a screen. A Computer in a screen casing with a screen is just that, but this is not that.

Aaaron16 · 01-30-2007, 01:01 AM

Either way, I need at least a screen w/ some buttons ASAP. Any ETA on this?

2k1Toaster · 01-30-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

Either way, I need at least a screen w/ some buttons ASAP. Any ETA on this?

There is a korean manufacturer of the digitalww model that has software buttons I believe.

It took the DWW unit over a year to get a small quantity once they posted a pre-order. This will not be ready for over a year. My bet would be 2 years.

Mrbmw99 · 01-30-2007, 01:28 AM

I haven't kept up as well as I should have in this thread, so let me update you on the progress!

I opened this thread with the question about the 7" method. This idea was to a) save a small amount of money and b) to assure that we have a steady supply of LCD panels for future production runs. There are a lot of concerns with the 7" method. However, I have since found different sources to get the 6.5" LCD's from. This means we will be using the SHARP 6.5" WVGA 800x480 LCD's in our design. By designing around this LCD panel, we can maintain the high resolution, while still staying in a compact form factor. We will be building this unit to meet the Double-Din standards.

Another thought is that by going 6.5", we still have enough room for buttons and the likes. The 7" would not have left enough room.

I will try and add responses below (in red):

Quote: Originally Posted by speedy_parker

I'd rather spend my creative efforts on cool stuff down the line, like a total integration into the lighting/heat/air cond. systems/etc that can be controlled via the touch screen. Those are the projects no one ever gets too because they're 'spent' after getting the HU working.

just my 2 cents..
mike

speedy_parker: I agree. That's one of the many thoughts behind this. I'd like to see what you'll be able to come up with!

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaaron16

If I could get a unit with the following options, I would pounce on an order of over 100 units almost immediately.

REQUIRED:
1. Software accessible buttons with BACKLIGHT (at least 6 please).
I'm thinking somewhere between 6 and 10 buttons.
Something such as this: http://www.rockwellcollins.com/ecat/gs/graphics/pfd.jpg (notice how the buttons are positioned so the on-screen menus can line up with them). Here’s another decent looking design: http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/405567...1156943447.jpg
2. >= 400 nits brightness (or transflective option)*
The LCD is 380cd/m2, without the touchscreen layer. We will also offer a transflective upgrade option for these, however, this upgrade will be expensive ($350ish**).
3. Double DIN compatibility - no need for dash modification.

Nice to have:
1. Black finish.
2. Windows CE with available BSP as done by VIA.
3. SD or CF slot to allow easy upgrading/maintenance.
4. Non-motorized.
5. Built-in USB port.

Will you be running Windows CE? Do you have a processor in mind? Have you considered creating your own LCD backlight using white LEDs? I'd imagine the power consumption would be reduced somewhat.
It will not run CE. The models with a motherboard inside are just that. You can run whatever you'd like on it. The LEDs would be a lot of work. I think the CCFL that comes with the LCD will work fine for the time being.

As background info, I would be using this for a custom software application in emergency vehicles (ambulances mainly – 95% of which are Ford E or F series). For this reason, brightness and durability have the most weight of all my needs. Being able to navigate my application's menu using the buttons will prevent the LCD from being poked at 24/7, so it's important to have this feature.
I think the buttons, as well as a rotary encoder knob, will help a lot in this situation.

Also, if it's possible, I'd like to have the ability to run my application on the device itself, as opposed to using an external PC (save a bit on total costs).
We will offer a version of the product with an included PC system that you can use to run your own applications.

I must say I'm quite excited to finally come across a device that meets my needs. Based on the trends and requirements of my field, this device will be in demand for not only the car enthusiasts, but also for industrial/commercial applications. I look forward to seeing what you have to offer.

Quote: Originally Posted by vrwired

NO NO NO.. That was the beauty of this sytem.. it just fits right in.. There is no way I am cutting my dash. No way No way. This is not cool at all.

Don't do it. Go native Double Din.
I think you will lose many customers.

Man WOW, I can't even believe you are even thinking of doing this.. I wouldnt even consider it an option.

DON'T DO IT

Quote: Originally Posted by vrwired

Remember stick with the least common denominator. If you stay Native Double din.. everyone can use/buy it.. If you ad a quarter inch.. not everyone can or will buy it. Simple math.. And to the people who say it is alright.... understand that that decision disables the use of the system for people that can't or won't cut the dash... remember the dash mod may be OK in the car you have now, but think about the future, you may get a car that you can't mod your dash, and then you would not even be able to use the system...

If it stays native than EVERYONE can use it.. All over the world..

The world works because of standards....
Stick to them... and we can all work on keepin our tolerances tight and clean...

Please... Seriously...

vrwired, It will be Double-Din. The 7" was an idea of the past. I was just trying to explore all possible avenues and get as much feedback as possible - which I got. I too agree, in the end, native Double-Din is definately the way to go!

Quote: Originally Posted by 2k1Toaster

non-motorized would be ok since the drive wont be in use all the time.
I agree with the built in USB drive and if there is room left over then maybe a memory car reader under the faceplate (you would have to move he front away if not motorizes or push a button to get to them so that they stay free of dust and other crap.
The unit will be non-motorized. The faceplate will be permanently fixed, no moving parts. This will make the unit more reliable, stronger and last longer than a motorized unit. I really like the SD card idea. Maybe an SD card on the front with a small rubber cover to keep it clean.

This is a screen. Not a PC.
The unit will be available with an internal PC.

I can guarentee you that this route will be much more expensive. Small device means small computer. Small is expensive. Small is not hardware upgradeable. Small is not easy to troubleshoot.

If you want a comparison, look in the mp3car store and see what a complete fully put together CarPC runs with a 7" screen. Now look at how much the Infill all in 1 unit costs. There is a big difference. And it has already been done with great expense.

Yes, small is more expensive. However, it's still an option for those who'd like to install mobile PC systems in no time. It would be a drop-in unit with everything internal. Got a new car? Pull this out of the old one and plop it in to new one. Takes 20 minutes. Think of the concept behind the Double-Din screen. Easy to do, no mods, etc. Now apply that concept to the WHOLE SYSTEM. I do agree that some people don't want to go this route for multiple reasons, that's why it will be an option.

Quote: Originally Posted by 2k1Toaster

I know. It probably will have a CE chip in it to interface the radio through USB and the button presses through software, but the underneath shouldn't matter. There will be a BSP probably but not user accessable and it shouldn't be. THere should be a clear modular feel to devices. A screen should be a screen. A Computer in a screen casing with a screen is just that, but this is not that.

No CE here. But as you said, none of that will be accessible to the user. There will be a USB device in windows to connect to and control the unit - and that's that!

---------------------

There's still a lot to do on this project, but I must say it's coming along nicely. I really appreciate all of the input, comments and suggestions on the design, and I hope they'll keep coming!

Keep in mind all models will have the same base screen and enclosure. They will look the same from the front (although the connectors on the back will vary accordingly). Also, there will likely be an optional GPS module that will have an SMA connector on the back that an external active GPS antenna can connect to.
Tenative Info:
Version 1: (Basic Video-Only HU)
(1) External VGA Input
(3) External Composite Video Inputs
(1) B-Style USB Connector (for connecting to the external PC)
(2-4) A-Style USB Connectors (for connecting external gear like GPS to the HU)

Version 2: (Basic HU with Internal Audio Support)
(1) External VGA Input
(3) External Composite Video Inputs
(3) External Audio Line-Inputs (Paired with the Video Inputs)
(1) Set of 4 (LF, RF, LR, RR) 3v RMS Pre-Outs for external Amplifier
(1) 4x45w Amplifier (LF, RF, LR, RR) Speaker Outputs
(1) Digital Audio Input RCA (SPDIF?)
(1) Digital Audio Output RCA (SPDIF?)
(1) B-Style USB Connector (for connecting to the external PC)
(2-4) A-Style USB Connectors (for connecting external gear like GPS to the HU)

Version 3: (Full Blown Internal CarPC System, with external A/V inputs)
(2-3) External Composite Video Inputs
(2-3) External Audio Line-Inputs (Paired with the Video Inputs)
(1) Set of 4 (LF, RF, LR, RR) 3v RMS Pre-Outs for external Amplifier
(1) 4x45w Amplifier (LF, RF, LR, RR) Speaker Outputs
(1) Digital Audio Input RCA (SPDIF?)
(1) Digital Audio Output RCA (SPDIF?)
(4-6) A-Style USB Connectors (for connecting external gear like GPS to the HU)
(1) Internal Nano-ITX PC System
(1) RCA Video Output (connects to Nano-ITX Mobo)

Remember, this are all TENATIVE specs! Things will change.

Your response?

- Brett

2k1Toaster · 01-30-2007, 01:30 AM

I like.

2k1Toaster · 01-30-2007, 01:31 AM

Do you have a projected per unit cost or projected retail date?

Mrbmw99 · 01-30-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by 2k1Toaster

There is a korean manufacturer of the digitalww model that has software buttons I believe.

It took the DWW unit over a year to get a small quantity once they posted a pre-order. This will not be ready for over a year. My bet would be 2 years.

2k1Toaster: You're way off. We're working VERY hard on this, and now that the LCD issue has been taken care of, most of the other stuff isn't that hard. We've already made a lot of progress on the design.

My current goal is April or May 2007. Obviously this includes development time and MFG time. If we hit a road block, yea it might set us back. But a YEAR is a long shot - let alone TWO!

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

- Brett

2k1Toaster · 01-30-2007, 01:38 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Mrbmw99

2k1Toaster: You're way off. We're working VERY hard on this, and now that the LCD issue has been taken care of, most of the other stuff isn't that hard. We've already made a lot of progress on the design.

My current goal is April or May 2007. Obviously this includes development time and MFG time. If we hit a road block, yea it might set us back. But a YEAR is a long shot - let alone TWO!

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

- Brett

You must have already had most of this designed then, or you guys are magic!

3 to 4 months for a full production including testing is one hell of a short time. I wish you luck.

I was under the impression that this thread was a feeler for this project, not close to the end of the production.

Cost?