The legalities of wardriving. - Page 4

yrean · 05-16-2006, 09:42 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

along with the photo's of your car sitting outside my house.

sigh...... and you think it would be that easy. first off, prove that i was on your network when that picture was taken. a picture of my car doesnt mean ****. look at my worklog and take all the pictures you want. chances are im sitting outside your house for a total of a minute to check weather. the chances of you getting back to your window with a camera before i drive off are slim to none. and then theres the fact of court costs. lol .. go ahead spend 5 grand trying to take someone to court for 200kb. secure your network with a mac if you dont want anyone on it. otherwise an open AP is just that. an OPEN ap. when you start broadcasting wireless it is also your job to secure the network. if you dont the only person at fault is you.

BarryWoods · 05-16-2006, 11:04 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by yrean

sigh...... and you think it would be that easy. first off, prove that i was on your network when that picture was taken. a picture of my car doesnt mean ****. look at my worklog and take all the pictures you want. chances are im sitting outside your house for a total of a minute to check weather. the chances of you getting back to your window with a camera before i drive off are slim to none. and then theres the fact of court costs. lol .. go ahead spend 5 grand trying to take someone to court for 200kb. secure your network with a mac if you dont want anyone on it. otherwise an open AP is just that. an OPEN ap. when you start broadcasting wireless it is also your job to secure the network. if you dont the only person at fault is you.

The webcam takes continous video. It is secured, that's why you won't be sitting there for longer than a minute. No chances about it, if you're sitting outside my house, you've already passed the no tresspassing signs.

gsd_racing · 05-16-2006, 11:27 AM

Great.... Look at it this way, I have a neighbor, he has a light which shines on his driveway. It also shines on my lawn. I am NOT going to pay him for the light which shines on my lawn. He sets up a fence (changes SSID, passwords stuff, encryption, ect...) problem solved.

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

No chances about it, if you're sitting outside my house, you've already passed the no tresspassing signs.

You're talking about a remote location....out of the way. Chances are if you have that much property to put up signs, your wireless isn't going to be that great anyways......lol.

3g Jester · 05-16-2006, 11:33 AM

i dont know how there is even an argument. its guilty by association. why else would you map wifi point except to later user them or post them on the net (wiggle) so other people can jump on said bandwidth.

b8bboi · 05-16-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

You're still accessing a network to get to the internet, accessing a network without the owner's permission is illeagle. If you are accessing the internet through my wifi you are actually accessing it through my firewall since it caches everything that goes through it, it's an ibm e-series server running ipcop. It basically boils down to theft of service. You are using my internet connection, which you didn't pay for, my electricity, which you didn't pay for, my paper to print out the access logs, that I will take to court, along with the photo's of your car sitting outside my house.

What a tightass!!!!!

Why go through all that troubles when you can just ******* secure your AP? Seriously, it takes about 5 minutes.

Wiredwrx · 05-16-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

You're still accessing a network to get to the internet, accessing a network without the owner's permission is illeagle.

Actually, it is not your network, it is your ISPs. They technically have the cause of action, not you. Also, it is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

If you are accessing the internet through my wifi you are actually accessing it through my firewall since it caches everything that goes through it, it's an ibm e-series server running ipcop.

But your firewall is not a computer. Now, perhaps your server is a computer, but the fact is, that he is not accessing information on your computer that you own. It is information that the user has requested, and is temporarily storing on your computer. While this is probably a grey area, it certainly is not as cut and dry as you think or want it to be,

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

It basically boils down to theft of service. You are using my internet connection, which you didn't pay for

and like I said, that is the ISPs cause of action.

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

my electricity, which you didn't pay for,

Well, your server and AP are on during that time. You would be hard pressed to determine HOW much extra electricity the users use of the system cost you. I am sure it uses more, but I bet it is miniscule or diminimus.

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

my paper to print out the access logs, that I will take to court,

Actually, the logs you print out to prove your case are NOT compensable. Even if they are, we get into the diminimus thing again, since the EXTRA paper and ink that is used to print the users use is miniscule.

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

along with the photo's of your car sitting outside my house.

That really proves nothing, but O.K.

You need to realize that in a civil case, you only recover DAMAGES. What you are actually out as a result of the wrongdoing. Assuming that the guy used a meg, or several megs of traffic on your system, ( I Just checked GCI, and it is 1 cent per MB--*Shared use - up to 3 computers (customer must provide router) $99.99 Activation fee required on all packages. No servers allowed. Other terms and conditions may apply. If you exceed your included monthly MB usage, you will be charged $.01 cents per MB--Oh by the way, it looks like you are violating your TOS by having a server on your system) So, I come and DL a GIG of stuff on your system, and it cost how much? 10 bucks. ANd lets say you can get me for electrciciyt, another 5 bucks (and that is VERY generous) You have about 15 bucks in damages. The small claims filing fee in your state is 40 bucks (http://www.state.ak.us/courts/forms/sc-100.pdf) So, you are gonna go through all that trouble, and have to track me down somehow (there is a cost for that, you know. That is also not compensable though the filing fee is) for a total of 65 bucks. Right. Sure you will, since when you get a speeding ticket, or better yet a parking ticket, you fight it to save the 35 to 50 bucks.

It aint gonna happen, besides the fact that I think there is no cause of action.

Michael

Wiredwrx · 05-16-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by 3g Jester

i dont know how there is even an argument. its guilty by association. why else would you map wifi point except to later user them or post them on the net (wiggle) so other people can jump on said bandwidth.

Guilt by association??

So are you guilty because someone you know commits a crime??

You do mean accomplice liability, correct. Well, accomplice liability, for the most part, exists only in criminal law. And since we have extablished that no criminal laws have been broken, there is no accomplice liability.

Michael

BarryWoods · 05-16-2006, 01:57 PM

No my firewall is a computer.

BarryWoods · 05-16-2006, 01:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by b8bboi

What a tightass!!!!!

Why go through all that troubles when you can just ******* secure your AP? Seriously, it takes about 5 minutes.

Look dumb ***, where did you read that my network wasn't secured??

BarryWoods · 05-16-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

Actually, it is not your network, it is your ISPs. They technically have the cause of action, not you. Also, it is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

But your firewall is not a computer. Now, perhaps your server is a computer, but the fact is, that he is not accessing information on your computer that you own. It is information that the user has requested, and is temporarily storing on your computer. While this is probably a grey area, it certainly is not as cut and dry as you think or want it to be,

and like I said, that is the ISPs cause of action.

Well, your server and AP are on during that time. You would be hard pressed to determine HOW much extra electricity the users use of the system cost you. I am sure it uses more, but I bet it is miniscule or diminimus.

Actually, the logs you print out to prove your case are NOT compensable. Even if they are, we get into the diminimus thing again, since the EXTRA paper and ink that is used to print the users use is miniscule.

That really proves nothing, but O.K.

You need to realize that in a civil case, you only recover DAMAGES. What you are actually out as a result of the wrongdoing. Assuming that the guy used a meg, or several megs of traffic on your system, ( I Just checked GCI, and it is 1 cent per MB--*Shared use - up to 3 computers (customer must provide router) $99.99 Activation fee required on all packages. No servers allowed. Other terms and conditions may apply. If you exceed your included monthly MB usage, you will be charged $.01 cents per MB--Oh by the way, it looks like you are violating your TOS by having a server on your system) So, I come and DL a GIG of stuff on your system, and it cost how much? 10 bucks. ANd lets say you can get me for electrciciyt, another 5 bucks (and that is VERY generous) You have about 15 bucks in damages. The small claims filing fee in your state is 40 bucks (http://www.state.ak.us/courts/forms/sc-100.pdf) So, you are gonna go through all that trouble, and have to track me down somehow (there is a cost for that, you know. That is also not compensable though the filing fee is) for a total of 65 bucks. Right. Sure you will, since when you get a speeding ticket, or better yet a parking ticket, you fight it to save the 35 to 50 bucks.

It aint gonna happen, besides the fact that I think there is no cause of action.

Michael

I'm not violating anything. I can't run a web server on my network, which I don't.

Wiredwrx · 05-16-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

No my firewall is a computer.

So no server? You firewall actually STORES the webpages on it for someone to access. Isn't that a server, and technically a TOS violation?? Also, I just read up a little on Firwalls, and can't find anything that says that the information is STORED on the computer. Also, a firwall is a program, not a computer. THe law you quoted requires that information be accessed either from an internal or external storage device. I fail to see how using the Net through your system is accessing the internal or external storage device. Even if it did, the system doesn't really store it, it is more akin to holding the information for a fraction of a second, and then send it out to the user. There is no real storage. If one accessed the Firwall somehow, could I bring up a webpage from the firwall if there was no connection to the WWW. Say, I disconnected the computer with the firwall from the Net, could I pull up information on it? I don't think so, so I do not think it qualifies as a computer/storage device.

Michael

Wiredwrx · 05-16-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

I'm not violating anything. I can't run a web server on my network, which I don't.

Actually, the TOS seems to say that NO SERVERS are allowed, not just webservers. Seems like FTP server, DNS servers, Webservers, Mailservers are all not allowed.

The word server doesn't mean JUST webservers, does it?

Michael

BarryWoods · 05-16-2006, 02:25 PM

http://www.squid-cache.org/ Read it, love it. I don't know what tos you are reading, I just logged into my account and looked up my tos, hmmm..

# FTP/HTTP Server Setup. You should be aware that when using the Service to access the Internet or any other online service, there are certain applications, such as FTP (File Transfer Protocol) server and HTTP (Hyper Text Transfer Protocol) server, which may be used to allow other Service users and Internet users to gain access to your computer. If you choose to run such applications, you should take the appropriate security measures. Neither GCI nor any of its respective affiliates, subcontractors, employees or agents shall have any liability whatsoever for any claims, losses, actions, damages, suits or proceedings resulting from, arising out of or otherwise relating to the use of such applications by you, including, without limitation, damages resulting from others accessing your computer.

BarryWoods · 05-16-2006, 02:34 PM

You know, we could keep arguing this crap till the sun explodes. I'm done. You guys just keep doing what your conscious will let you.

Wiredwrx · 05-16-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BarryWoods

http://www.squid-cache.org/ Read it, love it. I don't know what tos you are reading, I just logged into my account and looked up my tos, hmmm..

# FTP/HTTP Server Setup. You should be aware that when using the Service to access the Internet or any other online service, there are certain applications, such as FTP (File Transfer Protocol) server and HTTP (Hyper Text Transfer Protocol) server, which may be used to allow other Service users and Internet users to gain access to your computer. If you choose to run such applications, you should take the appropriate security measures. Neither GCI nor any of its respective affiliates, subcontractors, employees or agents shall have any liability whatsoever for any claims, losses, actions, damages, suits or proceedings resulting from, arising out of or otherwise relating to the use of such applications by you, including, without limitation, damages resulting from others accessing your computer.

Obviously, it will be difficult for me to read your TOS because you had to "log into your account and read it", but many, if not most, ISP do not allow servers. Yippeeee, you have not violated your ISP, though this really was not a discussion about that, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. Sorry.

So, if you would answer my question, if you disconnect your server from the Net, can you access a wesbite that went through your firewall. Also, the link you pointed me to does not appear to be your firewall. I thought we were talking about your firewall.

And even if YOUR system does use some sort of Caching, and storing of information, then MAYBE it would be illegal to access the net from YOUR AP. (I haven't looked, but that would assume that Alaska has a law similar to the PA law you cited) Let me guess, your AP is secure as well.

Tell me, how many unsecure APs do you think are using Proxies, Webcaching, and Firewalls? Yes, YOU might be the exception. So everyone, the next time you are in the Pole, DO NOT park in front of this guys house and try to use his connection, because he (or his ISP) will be able to sue you for about 10 bucks, plus 40 bucks of court costs. Please use at your own risk. Although, since the law requires specific intent, if you don't KNOW he is webcaching and the like, you might not be liable, but please don't take your chances. Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions, but in General (since this is a forum for the discussions about the world in general) there is no law being violated, and there is nothing actionable in wardriving or even accessing someones INet service wirelessly.

Michael

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