The legalities of wardriving. - Page 6

BarryWoods · 05-18-2006, 02:48 AM

Not up here....

TruckinMP3 · 05-18-2006, 08:27 AM

It is really simple. Using without permission is not OK.
All justifications are just that.
Do what you want but, it is not legal.

Wiredwrx · 05-18-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Silentbob343

Hell, you can't tap in to your neighbor’s cable and water, neither requires access to the inside of their house, so why can you tap in to their internet service legally?

There is a difference. The difference is that those things are not sent out to the world, they are kept exslusively, and used exclusively in the home/for the property, refering to tapping into a water supply or the cable. If your sprinkler/hose gives off so much water that it spills into the neighbors yard, or you make it that the cable can be received by everyone somehow (say convert it wiresless somehow) has your neighbor done something wrong by using the water or receiving the signal. Lets say the neighbor collects the water, and waters his plants with it, instead of using his own water, is he wrong. No, and it is not illegal. It is the homeowners responsibility to contain his resources. If he does not, I can use it, no matter what he wants or thinks. With WIFI, the signal is broadcast through out the neighborhood, or however far it reaches. It is the owners responsibility to secure the WIFI, to keep people from accessing it.

Wiredwrx · 05-18-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Silentbob343

heh, he would spend the five grand and then tack on court fees for you to pay as well. Would he win....hell if I know

You don't understand how the courts and lawsuites work. It's O.K., there is a whole semester in lawschool specifically that teaches you Remedies, what one is entitled to, can win, for each type of cause of action. You can't just sue for whatever you want.

Even if it were some sort of cause of action, say theft/larceny, the only thing one is entitled to is actual damages. Since the actual damages are the amountof electricity, and the cost of the bandwidth, that is all he is entitled to, plus court costs. Not lawyers fees, and not preparation costs, just COURT COSTS.

Michael

Wiredwrx · 05-18-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Silentbob343

To the other people in this thread who see nothing wrong with it:
If you say checking email and surfing is not illegal, then where dose the line get drawn and why?

Not sure what you are asking. What line needs to be drawn? How far to you think this will extend if bandwidth is "allowed" to be used?

Michael

Wiredwrx · 05-18-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

It is really simple. Using without permission is not OK.
All justifications are just that.
Do what you want but, it is not legal.

Really, it is not legal. Prove it. Show a law. Things are not just illegal. There has to be a law that makes it illegal. What permission needs to be gained. If you light your yard, and I walk by and use the light to read something, do you really think I have to ask permission first?? That is exactly what is happening. You are sending wifi (light) out to the street, where I am using it to surf the web (read).

Nothing illegal about it.

TruckinMP3 · 05-18-2006, 03:31 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

Really, it is not legal. Prove it. Show a law. Things are not just illegal. There has to be a law that makes it illegal. What permission needs to be gained. If you light your yard, and I walk by and use the light to read something, do you really think I have to ask permission first?? That is exactly what is happening. You are sending wifi (light) out to the street, where I am using it to surf the web (read).

Nothing illegal about it.

Justify it all you like. Whatever. It is easy to see you will not change your false point of view.

Wiredwrx · 05-18-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

Justify it all you like. Whatever. It is easy to see you will not change your false point of view.

"False point of view"?

If I saw a LAW that said it was illegal, then I would change my "false point of view" What I won't do is change my point of view because you said it is false. I deal in proof. In the law. Not your simple statements that have no bassis. You have yet to show me a law that says it is illegal, or provide any evidence or fact that it is illegal. All you have done is said it is illegal. So, is everything you say correct and true. Maybe in your little world, but trust me, just because you or I say something, doesn't make it so.

Justification only occurs when the act is, and and the person knows is, wrong, but does it anyway because of some reason. There is nothing wrong/illegal about it. If you can show that it is illegal, well then my continued argument that it is not illegal would be justification. Until then, it is not. Your statements that something is illegal is just that, statements with no foundation.

It would also be nice if you answered a question when posed to you.

Michael

turbocad6 · 05-18-2006, 04:33 PM

I leave my access point open.... never had a problem with having my bandwidth used so much as to notice a problem... I also may connect to a access point somewhere if my verizon evdo is down, which is less & less likely as they constantly expand..

I'm not doing anything malicious or destructive... & I wouldn't abuse this to the point of trying to do huge up/downloads.... if someone left there access point wide open then they shouldn't complain about someone using it as much as if they let there wife walk the streets with there tit's hanging out, don't blame anyone for looking... an open access point is just that... open.... a open window can be looked through, an open door can be walked through.... common sense should tell you if what your doing is right or wrong.... legally is another story..... I doubt anyone would be prosecuted for checking there email...

TruckinMP3 · 05-18-2006, 04:45 PM

Try the converse on for size. Just because you say it is not illegal does not make it legal.

Prove it is OK for you to steal any amount of bandwith from some poor basterd that thinks wireless is cool, so he puts it in his home without knowing enough to secure it from the thieves of the world.

Your justification (yes I read your post) does not make it OK. Research the law your self. I am not your legal counsel.

Do you also justify speeding, running a yellow light, or swiping an extra newspaper from the stand?
If someone's possession was in the sidewalk instead of on thier lawn would you take it?
Is it legal?

Ask a cybercrime expert...

Rickertsen2 · 05-18-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by phc

Little longer? Like decades right? WPA encryption is not crackable.

Its not a good thing to ever use the word "uncrackable". It was once thought WEP was fairly secure. From pure brute force it is pretty secure.... Then crytptoanalysis attacks were discovered to break it in no time. The same thing COULD happen for WPA. It is nieve to EVER say anything is not crackable.

I would say WPA is computationally secure given the current technology and any reasonable timeframe, but i would not say it is uncrackable.

turbocad6 · 05-18-2006, 05:04 PM

anyone that's too ignorant to realize that there wireless is vulnerable if left wide open, is also going to be too ignorant to even know if someones using it....

this point is becoming less of an issue now adays as more people become aware & most routers now adays hold your hand & walk you through encription...

2 years ago there were open access points EVERYWHERE.... now adays more & more are locked down.... any attempt at cracking security.... thats malicious.... if your front door is wide open & someone walks in, they did nothing wrong.... if they take something or refuse to leave when asked, then there wrong.... if someone asked me not to connect to there ap I wouldn't.... but for the most part I don't think anyone with an access point open really cares.... if they did they'd do something about it....

BarryWoods · 05-18-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

Its not a good thing to ever use the word "uncrackable". It was once thought WEP was fairly secure. From pure brute force it is pretty secure.... Then crytptoanalysis attacks were discovered to break it in no time. The same thing COULD happen for WPA. It is nieve to EVER say anything is not crackable.

I would say WPA is computationally secure given the current technology and any reasonable timeframe, but i would not say it is uncrackable.

21 seconds.
http://www.wirelessdefence.org/Conte...ed_WPA_Attack:

TruckinMP3 · 05-18-2006, 05:22 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by turbocad6

anyone that's too ignorant to realize that there wireless is vulnerable if left wide open, is also going to be too ignorant to even know if someones using it....

this point is becoming less of an issue now adays as more people become aware & most routers now adays hold your hand & walk you through encription...

2 years ago there were open access points EVERYWHERE.... now adays more & more are locked down.... any attempt at cracking security.... thats malicious.... if your front door is wide open & someone walks in, they did nothing wrong.... if they take something or refuse to leave when asked, then there wrong.... if someone asked me not to connect to there ap I wouldn't.... but for the most part I don't think anyone with an access point open really cares.... if they did they'd do something about it....

So you are saying if I do not care, it is legal for you to take from me? Wow. I guess I should tell you I care if you abuse me, kill me, or steal from me. Please do not do any of those things to me.

Are we as a society to say it is OK for you to steal if someone does not notice?

Maybe more access points are locked down because of people like you stealing. That is one possible reason for the first lock being invented for the door to your house.

Wiredwrx · 05-18-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

Try the converse on for size. Just because you say it is not illegal does not make it legal.

If I could prove the ABSENCE of a law, I would. The only proof is the fact that you have not shown a single law that makes it illegal. How do you propose that I PROVE that there is NO law that makes it illegal?

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

Prove it is OK for you to steal any amount of bandwith from some poor basterd that thinks wireless is cool, so he puts it in his home without knowing enough to secure it from the thieves of the world.

Like I said, something is illegal if there is a law AGAINST it. How would you like me to prove the abnsence of something.

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

Your justification (yes I read your post) does not make it OK. Research the law your self. I am not your legal counsel.

Ahhhh, but I am. Thank lawschool for that.

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

Do you also justify speeding,

That is illegal, I can show you the law if you like

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

running a yellow light,

Not illegal, but how would you like me to prove the ABSENCE of a law.

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

or swiping an extra newspaper from the stand?

Illegal, shall I show you the law.

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

If someone's possession was in the sidewalk instead of on thier lawn would you take it?

Why yes, you could. See, larceny requires that you take something from anothers possession.
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/l007.htm

Quote: Originally Posted by TruckinMP3

Is it legal?

Ask a cybercrime expert...

Are there any cybercrime experts here, because if not, then I think the discussion must end because Truckin thinks only an expert can give thier opinions and bleiefs in this thread.

Michael

User Name		Remember Me?
Password