Scion xB '06 -- removable EeePC 901 in dash -- details, pictures, links - Page 2

rdholtz · 01-29-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by seanshine

The bezel material is PE....no conventional epoxy or glue sticks to it.

Oh, boy, that helps a lot. Now I wonder if plastic welding will work. I'll take the Duramix back and buy finishing supplies . . .

Thanks!

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Woohoo! I just went out in the garage and tried melt-welding scraps of the bezel pieces with a soldering iron. It works fine. It makes some plastic smoke using direct application of heat, but the parts bond well.

Now I'm wondering why I didn't just try the welding before heading down the epoxy road . . .

Thanks for the encouragement, seanshine, and for the redirection.

rdholtz · 02-02-2008, 03:38 PM

More on the Bezel:
In putting a 10.4" monitor into the xB dash, the main issue has been interference between the monitor and the existing air conditioning ducts. But there's another issue that's pretty important: I want the monitor more vertical than the standard bezel would allow. The Scion xB has a relatively tall, steep windshield, so a lot of sun comes through to the dash, and that's going to influence the readability of the monitor. In some places that would be an occasional problem, but it's a daily thing in south Florida. Angling the top of the bezel further away from the dash solves that issue, and may solve some interference between the bottom of the screen and one set of bezel mount points.

I've gone along the plan I developed and sliced one of the bezel sides, and then done a test fit. So far, the plan to make it deeper and wider at the top seems completely good and maybe even excessive: if I can widen the bezel only where the air conditioning ducts are, then the rest of it could remain stock width, and I'll only need to make the bezel deeper.

This could (1) change or eliminate some of the control placement problems, (2) reduce the amount of panel work required, (3) keep it closer to original, and (4) make it easier for others to follow this path. It would require that the bezel extend above the dash a little, but I think that can be done so it looks close to OEM.

I found some good plastic welding resources:
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...8&iSubCat=1261
http://www.oceankayak.com/product_support/repair.html
http://www.urethanesupply.com/ (see the How-To section) -- thanks for this one to turbocad6

Reading these and some of the writeups on MP3Car made the tool choice easy for me: I went to my friendly local Harbor Freight store and bought a heat gun for welding plastics, plus a separate air pressure regulator so I can adjust input air pressure right in the work area instead of having to walk across the shop to the air compressor. Now it's time to practice welding scrap polyethylene so I can do a good job when I actually tackle the bezel.

While I'm practicing, I'll be keeping my eye out for a source of polyethylene that's about the same thickness as the parts I'll be welding.

High Density Polyethylene has the recycling symbol "2", and is easy to find. It's made into drainage pipe, benches, doghouses, recycling containers, floor tile, picnic tables, fencing, lumber, mailbox posts, and lots of other things, including kayaks and canoes. The pigmented material is reported to have better crack and chemical resistance than the unpigmented (clear) material. Parts about 1/8" or 3/16" thick might be pretty good to cut into narrow strips for use as welding rods. I'll be trying that.

Once I get some test welds made, I'll post pictures of the progress, maybe even showing the path along the learning curve. Then I'll tackle the bezel itself.

rdholtz · 02-09-2008, 07:32 AM

Shifter Mouse
I came upon a very nice mouse for the shifter. I already had the PS2 version, but ordered the USB version for the vehicle.

I got two from pctekonline (on eBay), and they came to $16 and change each, including shipping. They're also available from http://www.fentek-ind.com/fingermouse.htm for $20 plus shipping. They were available on Amazon, but, when I went to provide that link, they were "not available" there, at least right now. The reviews on Amazon were mixed, but mostly because it isn't great for use with a keyboard; you have to take the mouse off your finger to type. I've used it for testing, and I think it'll be just what I want, mounted in the vehicle.

Mine isn't installed yet. My plan is to disassemble it and build a new shifter knob around it, much like a joystick. I'll run the USB cable out the bottom along the shift lever, rather than have it hanging out of the front.

Since I have both PS2 and USB versions, I swapped the mouseballs. I now have a black fingermouse with a black mouseball. That's nice and stealthy, in keeping with my desire to attract no interest from the Bad Guys Who Break In.

For those who want to try taking this finger mouse apart, there's a single Phillips-head screw under the label on the bottom of the mouse. Take that screw out, and it snaps apart nicely for any custom work we want to do.

rdholtz · 02-20-2008, 05:35 PM

Plastic Welding
I've been using the air welder, practicing up to weld on the bezel. I've welded some 1/8" thick pieces of high density polyethylene (HDPE) from a discarded recycling bin I cut up. They come out welded, all right, but they start out as flat pieces and wind up warped. The result is so ugly I didn't even gather any photographic evidence. I can't imagine how badly warped the bezel would be if I tried to weld onto it.

I've learned some interesting things about hot air plastic welding:
(1) Tack welding the pieces every couple of inches is absolutely necessary.
(2) I can make my own welding rods simply by cutting long pieces of material about 1/8" wide, so I wind up with rods 1/8" square. Since they're the same material as I'm welding, they work great. They eliminate the need to buy plastic welding rods.
(3) The air welder throws a lot of heat, even at low air pressures, and I can't seem to prevent the warping that takes place. I'd have to find a way to fixture the parts in position for welding and subsequent cooling, or do very, very small areas at a time. Fixturing would be a tough stunt, since the parts have pretty radical shapes.

I finally began searching for another solution.

I had some discussions with the guys at Urethane Supply, and they suggested that hot air welding is not the best approach to welding polyethylene. After talking with them, I ordered a plastic welder specifically for polyethylene, the KC Welder Pro (KC stands for Kayak & Canoe).

Click image to enlarge.

It's an 80-watt iron -- much like a soldering iron -- that has a special tip. It comes with polyethylene welding rods in the color of my choice -- I chose black -- and some stainless steel reinforcing mesh. Total cost with shipping was about $63. This welder doesn't use compressed air, so there'll be a little more smoke, I suspect, but it should do the job with far less warping. We'll see.

Here's a video that shows an example of a similar type of iron in use, repairing a plastic wheelchair wheel:

Plastic Welding with Soldering Iron

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rdholtz · 02-22-2008, 12:15 PM

More on Polyethylene
A good source of donor polyethylene is containers. I snagged a 1-gallon black antifreeze container from a friend's recycling bin. The walls are fairly light, but they should be fine for the extensions to the ductwork (if I can weld them without just turning them to puddles), because I'll reinforce them with ribs. I'm keeping my eye out for a discarded 5-gallon pail from Behr Paint's premium line; they're black polyethylene, too, but with much heavier walls. I could use other colors, but it would nice to have everything in black to start with.

Another note on materials for this: The guys at Urethane Supply said that Low Density Polyethylene (LDPE) can be welded to High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), using LDPE welding rod (either purchased or cut from scrap). LDPE containers carry the recycling symbol "4":

They said LDPE melts at a lower temperature than HDPE. Thus, LDPE welding rod can be used to weld HDPE parts together. However, HDPE rods can't easily be used to weld LDPE parts, because the parts would melt before the welding rod.

Tuesdays are recycling days here, so I plan to eyeball the recycling bins next week looking for black polyethylene. The new plastic welding iron should be here by then. I expect to do some practicing on miscellaneous pieces, and then make some fabrication progress, finally.

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Update: I tried cutting up and using the thin-walled antifreeze container, but it doesn't have enough strength to be really functional. I think I'll be far better off to find something with a thicker wall -- like the paint pails.

rdholtz · 02-23-2008, 06:59 PM

Plastic Welding
The plastic welder from Urethane Supply arrived in just two days, UPS Ground. I didn't ask for rush shipment, but they shipped it the same day I ordered it. That's good customer service.

I noticed that the instructions say to weld only 1" at a time. I suspect the reason is to avoid warping, and that makes me wonder if taking that same approach with the hot air welder would produce better results there, too.

I'll try that out . . .

rdholtz · 02-24-2008, 04:57 PM

Bezel Modifications:
I split the second side of the donor bezel and began laying out the bezel changes. The final dimensions -- well, today's final dimensions -- are that the top will extend 3" further from the dash, be 1" wider, and be 1-3/4" higher. There will be no change at the bottom.

The new bezel will rise above the dash now, but not so it intrudes on visibility or the sight line to the indicators on top of the dash. it looks that increase will allow me to install the monitor intact, without removing the case. It also means that I won't have to drastically change the position of the climate controls. I'll have to make some adapters to move them out about an inch or more, but that should be pretty easy, and the cables and actuator lines will still reach.

I'll spread the base and face portions apart when I build up the new bezel, adding material in between them. Here's the left side of the bezel showing the cut line, and the same part held approximately in its new shape by a 3" cardboard spacer at the top:

Click images to enlarge.

The base portion will remain intact and sit against the dash as it did originally. I'll weld material in between the base and the face to fill the gap. I'll also have to change the angle at which they meet, since the face is a bit wider -- 1/2" on each side at the top of the bezel, tapering down to no change at the bottom of the split.

To move the top of the bezel up, I had to cut the vent outlets off and raise them, and I'll have to fill that gap, too.

In addition to the bezel face, the ducts to the vent outlets, which are part of the bezel, will need approximately 3" extensions. As I set the cut-up parts in the dash, I realized that the extensions would need radical S-shapes to make the connection, and that's both inefficient and noise-producing. Then I had the idea to try reversing the vents, and that will work much better. I can swap the outlets and rotate them 180 degrees; then the airflow path will be relatively straight and will still function just as the originals do. It'll take more bezel finishing work, but the end result will be worth it. Here are pictures of that same side of the bezel with original vent outlet and the opposite side outlet. You can see that the airflow will take a straighter path.

In the lower photos, I've cut off 1" of the back of the duct; that's the part you see in the upper photos that has a foam ring around it where it seals against the dash. I'll use that cut-off part as the base to build the duct extension on.

Now I'll use acetone to strip the paint off the parts. All this shifting around of pieces means I'll have to tack-weld some spacers in while the parts are in the dash, to be sure I have the correct alignment. Then I'll pull the tack-welded assemblies out of the car and fabricate cardboard inserts to fill the gaps in the bezel. I'll use those templates to cut plastic pieces in the proper shapes and tack weld all the plastic pieces in place. There will be a lot of parts to juggle until I get it all tack welded.

I'll do finish welding in the shop where there's less chance of damaging some part of the vehicle with a misplaced hot welder. Actually, I'll do some finish welding in the shop, go back to the car for a fit check, weld some more, do a fit check, and so on. I want an OEM-quality fit, so there will be lots and lots of in-car fit checks as I go along.

Once I have the bezel face ready, I'll build the duct extensions. The final step will be to weld the bezel mounts back into the bezel so it stays in the dash all by itself (I've already cut off and set aside the ones I have to move).

Then I can face the challenge of making the bezel smooth and ready for paint. That's when I'll go back and re-read all the stuff on finishing from MP3Car members like Turbocad6 and Nexson.

turbocad6 · 02-27-2008, 06:00 PM

looking good so far, & very nicely documented. I particularly like that kc welder pro, I've been using urethane supply co for a while now & use there bigger welder but never noticed this welder, which is well suited for a hobbyist. keep up the good work, theres no doubt your meticulous in your attempts & have a lot of patience

rdholtz · 02-29-2008, 10:38 AM

Thank you. Wow, that'll keep me pumped for a good while . . .

When I read about the T-square bracket you used, I threw out any notion of having to stay within some concept of "automotive-only" materials. And your fine bezel work introduced me to plastic welding.

So appreciation from a man who's both innovator and craftsman feels great. Thank you some more.

rdholtz · 03-01-2008, 07:07 AM

Head Unit Relocation & Screen Button Placement

Quote:

Question PM'd to me:
i got an xb too. where are you planning on moving the stock radio to. i want to get my screen up in the dash but that HU is huge. i dont wanna lose the steering wheel controls by reverting to something non stock. there just isnt enough wire or room in the dash ya know

Answer: I'm removing the "auxiliary box" below the climate controls and mounting the head unit there. That means moving or losing the cigarette lighter, moving the airbag indicator, and losing the ashtray, which are all built into the auxiliary box unit. I had to carve away part of a horizontal plastic support panel in there to make space, but it fits fine. Here's a picture that shows both screen and HU positioned but not yet mounted:

Click image to enlarge.

The DVD unit is tucked in below the climate controls and above the head unit.

You're right about the cables; I'll have to extend the HU cables about 6" and the antenna by about a foot. I'll have to build a small amount of bezel face to go around the HU, and I'll mount the airbag indicator in the area below it.

I agree that it's a good idea to keep the stock HU; it works great, is a quality unit, and will be nice to have when I'm on a short trip and just want to listen to the radio.

The biggest problem I had with installing the screen in the HU slot is that it leans back too far, and is susceptible to glare and sunlight. So, figuring I had to carve the bezel up anyway, I just went way oversized. That's presented some challenges, because the 10.4" conflicts with two of the bezel mount points and the climate control ducts, and I've had to make major bezel changes to accommodate it. A 9" screen would probably fit beautifully in there, an 8" would be even easier, and a 7" would almost drop in.

For any of these monitors, I think the best practice would be to install it more vertically than the bezel face. Installing it almost flush with the bezel at the top of the screen, and further back at the bottom, would leave a horizontal flat area in the bezel at the bottom of the screen. That seemed at first to be a fine place to install the screen buttons, but I realized the area below it will be full of climate control components, and there won't be space for screen controls.

Drummer4152 · 03-01-2008, 11:27 AM

Hey man,

I love your "build your own" box idea. It turned out great. I think I might steal your plans if thats okay with you haha

rdholtz · 03-01-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Drummer4152

Hey man,

I love your "build your own" box idea. It turned out great. I think I might steal your plans if thats okay with you haha

You can definitely steal my plans

. If I were going to change anything, I'd scrounge around and find shorter pop rivets, just because they'd look nicer. Everything else has worked fine.

When you get going, post some pix. I'd love to see your work.

Drummer4152 · 03-01-2008, 12:45 PM

Will do.

I don't know exactly when I'll get to start fabricating. The vehicle I will be working on isn't exactly mine yet lol it's my fathers. I'll let you know when I start making the case and put up some pics.

turbocad6 · 03-01-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by rdholtz

When I read about the T-square bracket you used, I threw out any notion of having to stay within some concept of "automotive-only" materials.

believe me, I source just as much from places like home depot & staples for my mods as I do from automotive sources... metal is metal & plastic is plastic... I did my whole tilt nose on my caddy from materials at home depot, steel is steel, weather designed for housing or welded into a car, it does the job well...

rdholtz · 03-04-2008, 06:40 AM

Duct Extensions

Quote: Originally Posted by turbocad6

... metal is metal & plastic is plastic...

Once seanshine identified the material in my bezel as polyethylene, I began to cast the materials net out farther and farther: as you say, polyethylene is polyethylene. One issue that's been dogging me is how to make climate control duct extensions. Where would I find nice, round tubing 3-1/8" inside diamter? Plastic pipe? Nope -- it's PVC, not PE. This morning I looked at the bottle of vitamin pills on the bathroom counter, and said, "Hmmmm." The ruler confirmed that it's just the right diameter. The recycle logo is 2-HDPE. Hey, I just happen to have two of them. Cut off the tops and bottoms, and yeehaw, we may have a winner.

As I wrote this, I had another idea: I have a couple similar bottles that are even larger in diameter. I'm wondering if I could use those, but reduce the diameter by folding small ridges into the sides. That way I get the diameter I want with reinforcing ridges.

A little hot air from a hair dryer should make them pliable enough for testing. That'll happen today.

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If I hadn't put this information out on the forum, I wouldn't have learned what material to use. And if I hadn't written this while still in the planning stage, I would have just bulled my way ahead and used the smaller bottles. Because the larger-bottle idea popped into my head as I wrote, I think I have an even better idea.

Thanks to all of you who write here on the forum, and to the mods who keep it relatively sane. Thanks to MP3Car for making the forum available. And thanks especially to ozzy71, who got me into the carPC idea in the first place; here's his thread. He has a really big monitor in his xB.