New CarPC - this one for tuning - Page 12

meddler · 08-03-2007, 06:01 PM

Defiler = 50/50

Megalomaniac · 10-15-2007, 07:31 PM

i have a question.How come almost every DIY thread i have seen except this one and durwood's, that they say that a mid should go in the kick always...they say a mid needs as much natural distance as possible to gain optimal wave length for SQ (i thinks thats the correct term). i noticed how yours is on dash. if you hadn't done several hours of EQing would it have sounded terrible? id like to be able to put a mid on the dash too, so i dont have to worry about mid being kicked.

turbocad6 · 10-15-2007, 07:54 PM

the reason is path lengths, sound travels relatively slow, & when the mids are up high, the left one is usually much closer to you that the right one..., which means that the sound from the left will reach your ear before the sound from the right, skewing any kind of sense of central location.

some will use time delay to delay the sound of the closer driver, this delay is only several milliseconds, but enough to put you back in a virtual central listening location. the biggest draw back to this approach though is, by delaying the left you can improve imaging to the driver, but at the same time you can make it even worse for the passenger.

in competition no one cares what it sounds like to the passenger, it's all about getting that sweet spot at the judged location, which is why a competition car will be more likely to use this approach (red & durwood, perfect examples)

by putting the drivers as far from you as practical though, you are evening out the differences of these lengths quite a bit, most who sware by kick installs are less likely to use delay for this equalizing of pathlengths, & that is why you'll see some really sware by kick installs, kick installs are a bit easier to get to sound good from both sides of the vehicle, although it will usually not be as great as if it was tuned for just the drivers seat alone, it's more of a comprimise & a matter of priorities.

Megalomaniac · 10-15-2007, 07:59 PM

hmm. well i have no intentions to satisfy passenger at all. they dont know SQ if it hits them in the head. so a dash will work fine as long as i use time alignment you say,( loosely speaking)?

Dennis5587 · 10-15-2007, 09:41 PM

time alignment makes an insane differnece... but I would figure out a way to have some profiles so you can turn it off... even if your passenger dosn't know SQ what so ever, they will be able to pick up on the fact that something is wrong, especially when you have lets say 2 woofers, 2 tweeters and a sub all time aligned, if not more speakers. even the milliseconds of difference makes a huge deal when you're not in that sweet spot.

Its not that hard to set up just look at the alpine 701 manual, they have a nice explanation...

Megalomaniac · 10-15-2007, 09:43 PM

is the kx project good to use for t/a?

turbocad6 · 10-15-2007, 09:45 PM

loosely speaking, I guess, I mean if concern for the passenger is not an issue, then you've eliminated the biggest drawback to this kind of install. it is very possible to gt an awesome sounding system using time delays to eqalize pathlengths even if the right speaker is 3 times the distance from you as the left. you usually will have to lower the gain for the closer speaker too slightly, this usually results in the passenger only really mainly hearing the speaker on there side, there imaging & staging can be real bad, but again, if that's not a concern then it's fine.

these are mostly generalizations, it's not impossible to get decent imaging on the passengers side too, adding this so I don't get yelled at by anyone

but much more difficult, there are other variables with each vehicle that come into play with this too of course, & reflections also come into play, but for the most part I'd say,if you want it to sound good to both front ocupants kicks are the way to go, if you only care abou the one sweet spot then dash can be awesome though...

Megalomaniac · 10-15-2007, 10:42 PM

well i dont have passengers very often. and whenever the parents sit in car radio/stereo is off. if friends are in car volume is minimal so i can speak to them. this hobby is a bit Selfish for me

but i need my quality.

i noticed in my car that my tweeters on my dash sound better off-axis than on-axis. the stage sounded higher and further back offaxis.

JasonWW · 10-15-2007, 10:52 PM

I just wanted to point out, that unless there has been a big change in the judging, in competition your vehicle is judged from both front seats at the same time so it needs to image well for both front listeners. Equalizing the path length's and using time/intensity trading is almost mandatory to accomplish this. Any use of delays would need to be made for both sides, such as delaying a rear mounted sub only.

Now if you don't mind the passenger side sounding like the balance control is turned to the left, then you open up a whole lot of mounting locations. You could mount your mids and tweets on top of the dash and have them aimed right at you. Just like this:

Then all you need is to delay the left mid/tweet and BAM!. Realistic soundstage, assuming you don't make any big mistakes.

The reason you don't see this in competition cars much is because you would lose points for passenger imaging. The guy above is Earl Zausmer. He wasn't a conformist. He didn't care so much about points, he just wanted the best sound to his ears. As one of the few people to demo his car, I can say it sounded awesome.

JasonWW · 10-15-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

i noticed in my car that my tweeters on my dash sound better off-axis than on-axis. the stage sounded higher and further back offaxis.

Most automotive speakers are designed to sound best a certain amount off-axis because most stock door and dash mounting locations are going to position them that way. Every driver is unique, you just have to find their sweet spot or else you can alter their response through equalization.

Earls speakers were designed for home use which means they were made for on-axis listening. If your speakers sound good to you and you don't want to change to some different ones, then you will need to find both the location and angle they sound best in your car. This means experimentation.

Megalomaniac · 10-16-2007, 10:10 AM

right now im using the Hertz hsk165s, i am looking into the hertz hl70 3" mid to use as midrange.
here are my 165s

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...MAGE_00170.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...MAGE_00146.jpg

hl70 mid looking at
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...TZ/1084_10.jpg

durwood · 10-16-2007, 11:31 AM

IF you want to compete, check to makes sure the organization you want to compete in has single seat judging or two seat judging. Or if you want your front passenger to hear what you hear then go towards kickpanels.

There are advantages and disadvantages to either dash mounted mids and tweets vs kick panels. There are also advantages and disadvantges to using reflections vs not using reflections. As turbocad pointed out, other factors come into play such as early reflections and late reflections.

Minimizing pathlengths is a "mechanical" aspect of the install where compensation by tiem alignemnt is a "electrical" aspect. Many preach you need to make sure the mechanics are correct before you do anything electrical, and I will agree to a point, but I think and know that each has its own advantage and disadvantage as I mentioned earlier.

Comb effects or comb filtering will wreck havock on frequency response and sometimes no matter how much "electrically" you try to correct it it won't make one bit a difference. This is where the mechanics are superior.

Just remember, car audio is full of compromises and trade offs unless you build the car around your stereo. (I.e. move seat rails, seats, rebuild dashes, center consoles, etc etc.), but then it becomes more of transporation or storage for your stereo and not necessary a car anymore.

bagwellfive · 10-16-2007, 11:41 AM

2 words:
HARD
CORE

turbocad6 · 10-16-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by durwood

Just remember, car audio is full of compromises and trade offs unless you build the car around your stereo. (I.e. move seat rails, seats, rebuild dashes, center consoles, etc etc.), but then it becomes more of transporation or storage for your stereo and not necessary a car anymore.

for sure... almost everything in existance is a trade off of sorts, depends what aspects have higher priority over the aspects that have lower priority...

way back when, in iasca, the judging was drivers side from what I remember, I haven't been around any competition in like over 15 years, didn't even realize or consider that the judging may be both sides of the vehicle really, but even then, I would expect the judging to still be mainly from the drivers seat, with maybe points lost for bad imaging on the pass side?hmm ??

I don't know much about current competition at all really..., but personally, I like my system to sound almost as good from the passengers side as the drivers... I hate to have to make anyone I audition my system too, to have to be in the drivers seat, although if I want to make the biggest impression, or if I'm showing off to someone that has a clue, then I shove them in the drivers seat

durwood · 10-16-2007, 12:40 PM

LOL. I always let them hear it from the passenger side first. Usually they are like sounds pretty good (probably just being nice). but then I have them sit in the drivers seat. The grins, smiles and people feeling my dash looking for extra speakers that just aren't there is fairly humorous to watch.

My fiance never understood what I was doing until she sat in my seat one day. Then she had an ohhhh now I understand moment.

But ya as a recent poster just said: Jan's install is way hardcore. So is turbocads.