Scion xB '06, in-dash Atom 330, Lilliput 889GL; details, pictures, links. Index: pg 1

**dMand** · 12-31-2008, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by rdholtz

Road Trip Notes, Part 2 -- Mouse Control

Back in Post #300, dMand asked about the Finger Mouse (also see Posts #18 and 302). I had only used it in a desktop setting, so I brought it along to see how well it works while driving. Here's how it looks:

In the car, it works surprisingly well. I can leave my hand resting on the shifter and still control the mouse, even though my fingers are nowhere near the computer. That would be useful even with the touchscreen (which I haven't even ordered, yet). The idea of actually mounting it on the shifter has become much more interesting, although doing that is still pretty far down the priority list. Mounting it would make right-clicking very easy; it's a bit awkward hand-held. A Bluetooth version would be even niftier, because it would eliminate the cable.

Other options for mouse control would be:

a touchpad like the Cirque SmartCat
an Ergonomic touchpad
a trackball
a Space Navigator
a small wireless "presenter" mouse with built-in trackball

So far, my favorite of these is still the Finger Mouse; the presenter mouse comes in second.

Then we have location to consider:

the shifter is handy, but I drive a stick shift, so there's a lot of motion; anything mounted on it will have to take that abuse in addition to normal vehicle vibrations
the armrest/console would seem to be a good location, but the Scion xB doesn't come with one (they're available as aftermarket add-ons, but they're minimal due to space constraints)
I might be able to make some sort of add-on dash extension panel so I can reach the mouse/controller easily while my hand is on the shifter.
the Scion xB's sound system steering wheel controls are mounted in a panel on the left spoke of the steering wheel, but the panel on the right spoke is empty; that would make a great place for a mouse/controller.

So far, my favorite of these ideas is the shifter; the steering wheel comes in second, but that probably limits me to wireless mouse/controller unit unless I can find a wireless keyboard with a mouse/controller built into it.

Hi rdholtz,
Thanks again for replying. I just read your initial reply to me, then suddenly, I came across this one. Anyway, I'm here now after a few days of searching through the entire thread to see if you actually did reply. Whew! What a mammoth post! You're such a powerful thinker, quite an intellect if I must say so myself.

You had mentioned previously about having a joystick controller fixed to a shifter for navigating windows. Well, I thought I'd share my experience with you since my vehicle is also a stick shifter. I have mixed feelings about the joystick through first hand experience.

(Sorry about the rather large picture, I'm not quite sure how to resize it without editing the image)

The joystick below, is what I will be reviewing today.

I reverse engineered the logitech extreme 3D Pro's upper control section to mount on my shifter. My friends thought it looked great because of its space age design, and the fact that it matched real good with my black interior. It reminded them of the movie back to the future. So, aesthetic wise, it looked tough and techy- basically a really cool mod.

Functionality-
One thing I wished that worked the way I wanted to, was the ability to use the mini joystick at the top as a mouse. It was functional, I used joytomouse software to configure it. However, I found the response time to be painfully slow. Left and right clicks worked just fine, even programming other auxiliary buttons on top. The fire button was used to open the windows menu.

Nevertheless, trying to operate the device was very tricky without accidentally pressing the top four buttons, while shifting, when the computer was on. Multiple apps would pop open all of a sudden, when you didn't want them to. So, basically it was more of a hassle than being worthy of keeping as a permanent device. The cool factor is missed however.

on to the base plate- to mod or not to mod?

I loved the base plate on the logitech because of the multiple programmable buttons, but, it couldn't fit where my shifter boot was attached to the console. The pcb inside was way too large. Had that not been the case, I would have used it in combination with the upper control unit. It required me to cut my console in order for it to adapt properly. Cutting the console wasn't something I wanted to do, so I didn't attempt to mod it.

Nevertheless, the opening where the boot is on the joystick that allows for axial movement, is large enough to enable shifting gears into all positions, including reverse.

I thought the joystick, as a whole, would be an awesome replacement to my mx400 laser mouse, it was the wrong call.

I removed the upper unit from the shifter, threw it in the trash, and put back the 357magnum revolver as my shift knob. Perhaps your mileage with the joystick may differ.

After much trial and error dealing with the joystick, I noticed the fingermouse on your page, and felt the desire to want to implement it on top of the magnum revolver.

The reason why I requested the pics was to 'guesstimate' if the internals of the finger mouse could fit inside the magnum's hallow housing. Anyway, there's no need for pics of its internals. What I wanted to ask you is, does the trackball on that device use a laser mechanism? or, is it similar to the multiple wide wheel, internal scroll mechanism, often found in the older ps2 mice?

**rdholtz** · 12-31-2008, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

ELO Touch Panels are so heavy, I dont understand why any one would steel that. Is he in FL too? Excuse my language but anyone that is dumb enough to steel that is a fuking idiot. This is why I wish my car had flame throwers on the side of it, just burn the dumb fuks to death. God that makes me so mad. This is such a huge fear that I have thankfully, the PC and all its components are secure, but im scared they will rip out the screens thinking thats were all the components are, like a head unit ( I think thats what they thought your son's was, a whole system in a screen). Is the new one a touch screen also? ELOs are so expensive, im surprised he would put such a expensive screen in his car. Infact I wouldnt care if they stole the lilliput, but the 15" im so scared because its hard to find and because of the upgrades im doing to it.

Josh was in Alabama with another engineer; he thinks someone saw the screen lit up as they were driving at night, noticed the out-of-state license plate, and just followed him to the restaurant. While the guys were inside eating, the thieves were outside thieving. They broke a side window and wrenched the screen and mount out of the dash. They were kind enough to disconnect the cables, not cut them, and, other than the window, they did no other damage to the car itself. The dash was unscathed.

The fact that they disconnected the cables and only took the heavy touchscreen tells us they were thieves of opportunity, not professionals. They left without taking an envelope of cash, a computer worth far more than the screen, a digital camera, quite a few tools, a laptop in a backpack, and some other miscellaneous stuff. It was nighttime, and they may not have had a flashlight. Or maybe they were stupid even for criminals. Or maybe it was one guy alone, and he decided he'd better make his getaway. I bet he was damn disappointed with the haul, especially if he tried to pawn it.

The value of the stolen parts was less than the insurance deductible, and we didn't have any interest in faking up a bunch of receipts for "professional installation" to try and recoup the loss, so it was all out of pocket.

The vengeful side of me wanted to surround the new screen with a very sharp edge of sheet metal; if they tried to steal that, they'd give blood for it. Yes, booby-trapping is illegal, but I still sorta like the idea of making thieves pay for being lazy and stupid. The strongest reason we wouldn't do anything like that is that Josh has a seven-year-old daughter who will be handling the screen; she's a lot more valuable than revenge.

The experience certainly got us to discuss alarm systems. I checked the link you provided, and that system looks okay, with reservations: (1) I wonder about the cost of installation; (2) I'd want to check with our insurance companies to see if it's acceptable for their discounted premiums (for having alarm systems); and (3) I think I'd prefer a system that calls me, rather than one that can only buzz my alarm beeper if I'm relatively close by.

We'll keep looking at alarm systems . . .

Meanwhile, I'm doing my best to make my system look unremarkable and unworthy of a break-in. About the only clue they'll get that anything is custom will be the oversize wheels and tires, which won't be particularly flashy -- just taller and wider. Well, I have a sticker I think I'll put on the back window for fun:

It'll only be about 4 inches wide. Maybe the bad guys will think the driver is nuts instead of a techie. Hmmmm -- maybe they're the same thing, huh?

Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

PS: I think I am going to darken my tints.

Both our cars are tinted all the way around (except the windshield). If the tint is too dark, Florida cops can write citations, and that generally requires removing the tint and presenting the "corrected" vehicle at a local police station for re-measurement of the window tint level. No amount of tint -- except the very illegal "limo" tint -- is going to keep people from seeing that screen all lit up. We just have to risk it, and hope we don't get in the crosshairs of a thief.

**WraithJ** · 12-31-2008, 08:36 AM

Sorry to hear bout josh's unfortunate experience. As for alarms, if the link Hijacks sent me in a discussion we were having on his thread its not acceptable for discount.
I imagine the US insurance is very similar to the UK section. I will copy what i worte in hijacks thread.

"As for security, what you get depends on what gadgets you want, if you want to just upgrade the factory job then the TOAD C4 Cat 1 Upgrade kit (£350 fitted) is pretty good, if u want a Cat 1 system with room for plenty of gadget upgrades start with a CLIFFORD CONCEPT 650 MK2 (£360 fitted). Again TOAD make a good CAT 1 system aswell but from review Ive read clifford are the don. Another thing to bear in mind is CLIFFORD do loads of different systems with slight tweaks both more or less money. If you want to scare even the most hardcore theives, take a look at Gapsecurity.co.uk and there GAP PLATINUM SYSTEM (£999 fitted) from what I can tell its all made up of seperate componenets cherry picked to make a wicked system.

Or u custom build youre own. I know from reading ure thread youre more than a dab hand with the old electronics but bear in mind youre insurance will usually offer a good discount with a 3rd part alarm, but only if its a thatcham approved alarm fitted by an approved professional!"

The GAP system i talk about is one of the systems on the market that will text you when they detect movement of the vehicle, there are ways you can do this without the nearly £1000 price tag, but i havent seen many vehicle's with such good physical protection of the ECU. I would imagine the cost of parts is around 800-850 with the rest for fitting, so if u sourced each part seperately you could probs get it for nearly 700-750. But as I talk about above it needs a registered fitter to count for a discount.

If you have any questions, I may be able to help

Cheers

WraithJ

**GizmoQ** · 12-31-2008, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by dMand

You had mentioned previously about having a joystick controller fixed to a shifter for navigating windows. Well, I thought I'd share my experience with you since my vehicle is also a stick shifter. I have mixed feelings about the joystick through first hand experience.

I agree with you on it not being the best fit for a manual tranny. I had the same Logitech in my old Caddy with Joy2Mouse also.

I had to increase the mouse speed for the 8-way hat to be usable for mouse control, luckily the logitech supports differential mouse control (the longer you hold it in one direction the faster it goes). The buttons and button combinations got awkward as I added more and more functions. Lastly, the stock stalk location was a little off for my sitting position. I can understand how shifting gears with this thing could get old fast.

I upgraded the Caddy to a Saitek X-52 - more buttons,more hats, more programmability, EXTREME COOL FACTOR! and I don't shift often.

My Mustang has a CH FighterStick.

I designed it specifically for ergonomics after the lessons learned in the Caddy. In it, I cut off the stock stalk. And had a local metal shop cut and bend me a 1/2" round Stainless steel rod to fit the shifter and joystick. It may not be comfortable for others, but it fits me perfectly (height, distance, throw, angle, etc). When I drop my arm on the armrest, my hand naturally wraps around the joystick - a perfect fit. And the amount of available controls is excellent. My gal even knows which switches change songs and uses it from the passenger seat to prevent fingerprints on the screen.

There was a post back in 04/05 where someone modded the fingermouse onto a shifter. I had considered it for a minute but the fingermouse I had got all gummed up from dust and dirt so I decided it was no good for the car environment. Its internal wheels eventually had intermittent contacts and after less than 6 months daily use stopped touching the ball all together.

**dMand** · 12-31-2008, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

I agree with you on it not being the best fit for a manual tranny. I had the same Logitech in my old Caddy with Joy2Mouse also.

I had to increase the mouse speed for the 8-way hat to be usable for mouse control, luckily the logitech supports differential mouse control (the longer you hold it in one direction the faster it goes). The buttons and button combinations got awkward as I added more and more functions. Lastly, the stock stalk location was a little off for my sitting position. I can understand how shifting gears with this thing could get old fast.

I upgraded the Caddy to a Saitek X-52 - more buttons,more hats, more programmability, EXTREME COOL FACTOR! and I don't shift often.

My Mustang has a CH FighterStick.

I designed it specifically for ergonomics after the lessons learned in the Caddy. In it, I cut off the stock stalk. And had a local metal shop cut and bend me a 1/2" round Stainless steel rod to fit the shifter and joystick. It may not be comfortable for others, but it fits me perfectly (height, distance, throw, angle, etc). When I drop my arm on the armrest, my hand naturally wraps around the joystick - a perfect fit. And the amount of available controls is excellent. My gal even knows which switches change songs and uses it from the passenger seat to prevent fingerprints on the screen.

There was a post back in 04/05 where someone modded the fingermouse onto a shifter. I had considered it for a minute but the fingermouse I had got all gummed up from dust and dirt so I decided it was no good for the car environment. Its internal wheels eventually had intermittent contacts and after less than 6 months daily use stopped touching the ball all together.

Hey gizmo, thanks for explaining the details. The Saitek x-52 looks h3lla awesome! The ergonomics of a joystick can't be beat, and goes great with vehicles that have tilt lock, (adjustable) center armrest support.

I'm getting falshbacks from seeing the Extreme 3D Pro being put to good use.

Did you ever add the base plate with it?

On my Jetta, I have to push the shifter down firmly to get into reverse. Then situate/adjust the joystick from slipping/twisting afterward, then close all of the popped open windows. So, yeah, it became more of a chore for me to operate than anything else.
Had this vehicle been an automatic, i'd be in heaven right now. Definately would have kept it!

On the ESC-V screnshot (second image/right side), is that Saitk's actual software configuration for programming the X-52 joystick?

Lastly how is that lcd screen mounted?

It looks like a feasible option, i'm not up to the call of hacking the center of my dashboard just yet. If I do, i'll use it strictly for navigation.

I'm headed off to your page for pics.

Happy New Year to you, and RDHoltz!

**dMand** · 12-31-2008, 09:50 PM

rdholtz, i was looking at the scion icon below your name. On the bottom of the icon, is it a Kuwaiti Liberation award? I'm prior service and that thing looks familiar.

**GizmoQ** · 01-01-2009, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by dMand

Hey gizmo, thanks for explaining the details. The Saitek x-52 looks h3lla awesome! The ergonomics of a joystick can't be beat, and goes great with vehicles that have tilt lock, (adjustable) center armrest support.

I'm getting falshbacks from seeing the Extreme 3D Pro being put to good use.

Did you ever add the base plate with it?

No, at the time, I felt I didn't need it. And like you felt it would require too much modding for the utility.

Originally Posted by dMand

On the ESC-V screnshot (second image/right side), is that Saitk's actual software configuration for programming the X-52 joystick?

Thats just my kneeboard cheatsheat for the programming I setup for my system. Saitek actually has a very powerful programming software and the kneeboard pic was adapted from the CH Flightstick kneeboard template I already had.

Originally Posted by dMand

Lastly how is that lcd screen mounted?

Very carefully. This tablet has a feature-rich docking station, complete with three independent 2.0 USBs, cooling fan, firewire, DVD/RW, and A/V I/O. I basically gutted it, stashed the internals into the dash at the mounting plate and the top half of the dock holds the tablet in place. The JAE50 DVD cable was extended to place the DVD in the glovebox. The firewire connects to my 1Tb drive in the center console and all my USB external boxes are in the well under the ashtray.

Originally Posted by dMand

It looks like a feasible option

For me it was the only option. I routinely drive three different cars and didn't want to build three CarPCs. Now each has a dock and the tablet moves seemlessly from one to another.

p.s. The medal you refer to is not Kuwaiti Liberation, it's a VietNam Service Medal.

**rdholtz** · 01-01-2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

There was a post back in 04/05 where someone modded the fingermouse onto a shifter. I had considered it for a minute but the fingermouse I had got all gummed up from dust and dirt so I decided it was no good for the car environment. Its internal wheels eventually had intermittent contacts and after less than 6 months daily use stopped touching the ball all together.

Because the FingerMouse is a standard mouse, using mechanicals with electronics, they're just like regular old mechanical/electronic mice with the rubber or hard plastic ball. They do get dirty, and I imagine a vehicle is a harsh environment for them. Still, I've been setting up Centrafuse and road testing it, using the FingerMouse; I like it a lot, and think I'd like to have something like it when I'm all done.

I don't think I see myself with a simulator-type joystick, but there are some attractive features to them; I appreciate the wealth of information you've put together. I'd need a cheatsheet with all those functions. Joysticks do have a serious dose of cool . . .

Originally Posted by dMand

rdholtz, i was looking at the scion icon below your name. On the bottom of the icon, is it a Kuwaiti Liberation award? I'm prior service and that thing looks familiar.

GizmoQ has it exactly right: that's the Vietnam Service Ribbon. I was there for 17 months in '69 and '70 as an Army engineer. I put the ribbon in the image as a subtle hello to others who served there -- call it a silent shoutout.

Where did you serve, and what branch?

**WraithJ** · 01-02-2009, 03:43 AM

hell not only a car pc don, but an ex service man too! My hats off too you sir! Howz centrafuse going, is it ok speed wise on the eee?

**rdholtz** · 01-03-2009, 12:02 AM

Thanks for the kudos, WraithJ.

Centrafuse was coming along pretty well; speed was just fine. But I had a hard crash today, and had to restore to the point where Centrafuse was installed but not configured. So I'm starting over.

I think I'll finish reading the entire Centrafuse Manual before I start again. I know there were some things I missed in quickly going through it , but I was really excited when I got it, and just had to install as fast as possible. This time, I'll take some time before I do it. I probably won't be back on the road for at least a week, so I have some time.

My priority in getting it going will be Navigation. Music worked well, and ripping music was easy and fast. And, by the way, the crash didn't cause any music loss. Looks like it was a corruption of the operating system files; there was no data loss, but I did lose the Centrafuse settings. C'est la vie . . .