Thread: Scion xB '06, in-dash Atom 330, Lilliput 889GL; details, pictures, links. Index: pg 1

Radar Detector vs. Mirror

We run radar detectors in both our Scion xBs, and locating them has been an ongoing discussion. Right now, they're both low on the windshield in the center, using the standard Escort suction-cup mounts. The ideal place for the unit is centered in the windshield, both horizontally and vertically, because that lets the secondary rear-looking sensor see clearly out the rear window.

I still thought I'd rather have mine up above the mirror. I don't want it very visible, if that's possible. The real motivation here is security: even with the fold-out sunblock in the windshield, I leave the suction cups and the small mounting bracket on the windshield. That's a clue to thieves that there's something inside worth stealing. Getting rid of the suction cups helps me present a very uninteresting appearance to the lowlifes of the world.

There are two problems with mounting the detector above the mirror:

1. The detector may be so high it doesn't have a clear sensor path out the back window.
2. The windshield has a coating in the area above the mirror -- a sunblock -- that affects the performance of the detector. The sunblock isn't just an overlay on the windshield; it's pits in the glass with black paint in them. There's no way to scrape the sunblock off and make an optically-clear area.

I figured one way around this would be to move the rear-view mirror lower, but it's on an arm that bolts to the ceiling. I needed a mirror with a longer arm, or I had to get a completely different mirror and mount it on the glass, as it is in many vehicles. The latter course seemed to be the way to go. I was passing by my friendly local U-Pull-It automotive boneyard, so I stopped in. I found two nice, clean windshield-mount mirrors that would fit; in case we could make this work, I bought them both -- one for each car. Boneyard price: $2.50 each. The kits to re-glue them to the windshield are a few dollars at auto parts stores, and usually have enough adhesive for two attachments, so the price per car installed was going to get up to maybe $4. Cheap, if we decided do it.

I removed the OEM mirror; it's held on by two Phillips-head screws under a clip-on panel. After holding the detector and the windshield-mount mirror in different positions, I just couldn't find a way to give the detector a clear view out the rear window while it's on top of the mirror. If I got the detector low enough, the mirror was too low.

Having set the detector in all sorts of locations and found none that I like, I think I'll abandon the windshield-mount mirror.

I see four options:

1. Build a dash-mounted support for the detector.
   
2. Attach the detector to the existing mirror mount so it rides just below the mirror. I'd have to devise a method to attach it.
   
3. Mount the detector to the windshield using a standard mirror mount arm, rather than the suction cups. When the sunblock is up, I'd hope that it would simply look from the outside like a mirror mount. I'd have to devise a method to attach the detector to the mirror mount.
   
4. Leave the detector on the suction cups. That's the easy temporary solution, but it's the one I like least.

Any suggestions?

Originally Posted by rdholtz

Radar Detector vs. Mirror

We run radar detectors in both our Scion xBs, and locating them has been an ongoing discussion.


I see four options:

1. Build a dash-mounted support for the detector.
   
2. Attach the detector to the existing mirror mount so it rides just below the mirror. I'd have to devise a method to attach it.
   
3. Mount the detector to the windshield using a standard mirror mount arm, rather than the suction cups. When the sunblock is up, I'd hope that it would simply look from the outside like a mirror mount. I'd have to devise a method to attach the detector to the mirror mount.
   
4. Leave the detector on the suction cups. That's the easy temporary solution, but it's the one I like least.

Any suggestions?

There is a fifth option (if not more): get/make a remote radar detector set.

I've done this a couple times. A long time ago, I had a remote Bell detector stashed in my grille and it worked quite well. A few years ago, I dismantled a V1 and put the front in a sealed box in the grill and the rear in my third brake light with the remote display stealthed inside my instrument panel (I'll never do that again, but there is a commercial alternative).

My current install is actually a V1 in the garage remote slot above my mirror - comes complete with power, a decent front view, an excellent rear view, and completely hidden from outside the car.

Another consideration might be a radar detector mirror or this or install yours in the rear of the vehicle with an adequate view out front.

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

There is a fifth option (if not more): get/make a remote radar detector set.

Hmmmm -- I like this remote installation idea; the unit in the link is Valentine-specific, and we run Escort & Bel (they're from the same company), so we'd have to make our own. This $299 kit appears to be a weatherproof box with weatherproof cabling, plus a remote display. We have two older Escort units from which we might be able to cannibalize the displays (the units only bring $50 as trade-ins at Escort, and sell on eBay for about twice that). This has some potential.

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

A long time ago, I had a remote Bell detector stashed in my grille and it worked quite well. A few years ago, I dismantled a V1 and put the front in a sealed box in the grill and the rear in my third brake light with the remote display stealthed inside my instrument panel (I'll never do that again . . .

I'm wondering what convinced you that was a route you'd never travel again: too much hassle, too expensive, not functional enough, eventual failure . . . ?

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

. . . but there is a commercial alternative).

I liked the sound of the commercial alternative, at first, but then I looked at the price. Sticker shock: $2960 is way, way too spendy for me -- that's six times the list price of our detectors.

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

Another consideration might be a radar detector mirror or this or install yours in the rear of the vehicle with an adequate view out front.

The mirror looks interesting, but I'm wondering -- if they can pipe the display into their mirror, that means it can probably be piped elsewhere -- perhaps right onto the computer screen. I'd like it if the detector sounded off, but didn't light up, and the readout came across the computer screen.

The other site looks like Chinese knockoffs, and I know nothing about their reputations or effectiveness. Josh has invested a lot of time reading detector reviews, and I've read quite a few myself. We'd hate to switch to lesser-rated products. What I'm really after is a better way to install and use what we have.

Your suggestions about other locations brought up a thought: I wondered if we could do a roof mount and have it be as functional as a grille mount; although it would mean we'd still lose rear-looking capability, it would be even higher than a windshield-mounted unit, so it would be effective for a greater distance. I had thought for a while that I'd add the side rails for a roof rack because that would let me add an external mount for the GPS without attracting a lot of attention to its existence. I thought perhaps the other rail location be a good place to put a radar detector.

I suspected the primary issue with the external location is protection from weather -- primarily heat and moisture -- and the other problem to resolve would be concealing the detector's presence somehow -- perhaps by customizing the front mounts of the rails to allow them to hold the devices. But the cars' low stance, while it's an advantage in some ways, would be a disadvantage here: the lowlifes could stand there and carefully inspect the roof rack without touching anything, then tear into it after some planning. That's counter to making the car look uninteresting.

I was in research mode, so I went to a few sites that test detectors, and at RadarTest.com found an article saying that high on the vehicle isn't necessarily better, because the lasers used in a lot of places are relatively narrow beams; if aimed at the front license plate, or at the grill, the beam may not be wide enough when it reaches the car to hit the roof-mounted detector, so we'd get no warning. It appears that radar & laser detectors are best mounted in the grille or windshield to keep them in the path of laser beams. I scrapped the roof-mount idea.

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

My current install is actually a V1 in the garage remote slot above my mirror - comes complete with power, a decent front view, an excellent rear view, and completely hidden from outside the car.

Now we're talkin' -- lowlifes can't even see it. That's what I was after when I was working on getting it above the mirror. Do you have any pictures of that installation? What kind of vehicle is it?

Originally Posted by rdholtz

I'm wondering what convinced you that was a route you'd never travel again: too much hassle, too expensive, not functional enough, eventual failure . . . ?

I have an engineering degree, worked in electronics design for a while, taught Radar Range Equation and tactics to AF Electronic Warfare Officers, so thought I could dismantle and rewire this little inexpensive (by Air Force standards) detector. Desoldering, unshielding shielding, calculating antenna tuning, overcoming line/power losses, maintaining beam geometry, wiring and rewiring, creating weatherproof casings, reintegrating to the remote display, and on and on and on. I made the mistake of telling some of my scientists about what I was going to do and they helped me turn a V1 into an equivalent to the best the AF had at the time. Have you ever tried building something by committee.

Originally Posted by rdholtz

I liked the sound of the commercial alternative, at first, but then I looked at the price. Sticker shock: $2960 is way, way too spendy for me -- that's six times the list price of our detectors.

That's primarily the laser jammers raising the cost. I couldn't find any info there about the detectors - I assume there are two remote displays (one for the front and one for the rear) which is pretty weak planning on their part.

Originally Posted by rdholtz

The mirror looks interesting, but I'm wondering -- if they can pipe the display into their mirror, that means it can probably be piped elsewhere -- perhaps right onto the computer screen. I'd like it if the detector sounded off, but didn't light up, and the readout came across the computer screen.

Check out V1VD on the forums. Only one done that I know of is the Valentine 1. Maybe if you ask the Cheetah folks real nice they'll share how they pulled info from the Bel and others.

Originally Posted by rdholtz

The other site looks like Chinese knockoffs, and I know nothing about their reputations or effectiveness. Josh has invested a lot of time reading detector reviews, and I've read quite a few myself. We'd hate to switch to lesser-rated products. What I'm really after is a better way to install and use what we have.

Agreed, but it was the only one I could find. In the mid '80s there were almost a dozen that clipped on the mirror, even Bel had one (I almost bought it instead of the stealth remote), but lately they've been abandoned - probably due to poor 360 degree visibility.

Originally Posted by rdholtz

Now we're talkin' -- lowlifes can't even see it. That's what I was after when I was working on getting it above the mirror. Do you have any pictures of that installation? What kind of vehicle is it?

Cadillac Eldorado ESC. Pictures aren't the greatest, but there is a hump in the headliner area just above the mirror. This area is for the garage remote, moonroof controls, and a retractable pocket for sunglasses. The slot for the garage remote is deep enough for the V1 but had to be widened for the display to be visible to the driver and to reach the controls. I have another of these with the slot closed that I used for a while with a remote display but that display was distracting and I never found a place for it that I liked. At eye level I can just see the top arrow; the volume control know is within easy reach; and the tones are quite audible from this location. Works for me.

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

Have you ever tried building something by committee?

That got a laugh. Yes, I've been in on designing by committee. It can be painful and miserable, even as the committee chair, because there are conflicting agendas and conflicting ideas; only rarely is there real cohesion and collaboration. My favorite line about design-by-committee is that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee".

One of the reasons I love to work with Josh is that we stay collaborative, no matter how tired we get. Sometimes Dion, Ed and Fritz get in the mix, too. They're bright, interesting, capable guys with widely varying backgrounds, so it's a terrific group that has fun with ideas and tools.

Originally Posted by GizmoQ

Maybe if you ask the Cheetah folks real nice they'll share how they pulled info from the Bel and others.

If I were the Cheetah folks, I don't think I'd be letting that information out, but it might be worth a few phone calls to see if I can find out what it does, and if it's something we could engineer around. I know Valentine has remote displays, and a few Bel models have them, but the Escort/Bel units we run don't have remote display capability built in. Drat.

And our xBs don't have a cubbyhole like your ESC. Drat again.

P.S. The FighterStick looks good there. I'll bet you put your body through some interesting contortions to frame and snap that picture.

Originally Posted by catalinux

Well, I have a suggestion for you.
This is what I did: I made a custom bracket so that my detector would sit right above the mirror. I previously did some tests and it seemed that it did its job great in there (worked also for the 360 degrees detection - back).
After I had a stone in the windshield, the people from the repair shop changed it with another one which had the mirror mount about 2-3 cm upper than the original one. It was too late to be changed again.
So, I took out the bracket I made, it barely fitted above the mirror towards the end of the windscreen. The solution was to fix the radar detector on the upper side of the mirror using double sided tape. So, now it's about a half of year and no problem at all. Works fine to me that way.
I also have the dark strip along the upper edge of the windshield and still it works fine. (The only problem is that it probably froze at about -10 degrees Celsius about two weeks ago and it sounds like it's at the minimum volume level although it's at its max.)
I may add a picture tomorrow with my install!
Good luck!

Thanks for your input, and thanks for the pictures. I ran an earlier unit on top of the mirror in my pickup truck, and it worked well there. Good job on the bracket.

After more research, I'm thinking I might build a dash-mounted bracket or support that places the detector relatively low, more in front of the driver. I'm less concerned with it getting a clear rear view than with keeping the display so it's easily seen by me and not by other drivers. I'm aware that most law enforcement officers don't much care for "fuzzbusters", so, in the event a police car is following me, I prefer not to prejudice them against me.

There's a good location on the left side of my dash near the pillar, and that's my current preference. Like most preferences, it's always subject to change if I get new information.

One thing I'm not very up-to-speed about is what makes for a good "view" for the detector's rear sensor. I've noticed that, even when the detector is sitting down on the passenger seat, nowhere near the windshield, it still picks up signals. Is it just picking up "bounce"? Can it sense through seats and headrests? Can it sense through my body? What are the signal strength losses when the signal travels through more than glass? What degrades the signal most/least?

Time to go to the Interwebs to get additional education on detector operation. I'll balance what I learn there with other concerns such as stealth and security, and then I'll determine the location I actually use.

I'll report back . . .

Originally Posted by rdholtz

If I were the Cheetah folks, I don't think I'd be letting that information out, but it might be worth a few phone calls to see if I can find out what it does, and if it's something we could engineer around.

P.S. The FighterStick looks good there. I'll bet you put your body through some interesting contortions to frame and snap that picture.

You never know till you try. Several of us got great data from SILABS when we found out about their USB FM radio, they recognized us as a part of their market share and let some of us beta test. I also have been a beta tester for several commercial apps, just by asking.

As far as the joysticks go, the CH Products FighterStick is in the Mustang, the one pictured above is the Saitek X-52. The picture was easily taken from the back seat, probably the only reason I ever sit back there.

Originally Posted by vanndaddy

As far as radar detectors go, Rocky Mountain Radar has a remote unit for about $600 and you can get one from a gray dealer for about half that.

That's the one I was trying to remember, good find!