Thread: Scion xB '06, in-dash Atom 330, Lilliput 889GL; details, pictures, links. Index: pg 1

Originally Posted by rdholtz

Aluminum Chassis Panels

It looks like I'll go with non-perforated panels. I'd normally use galvanized or aluminized steel, but in the scrap heap last week were some non-repair-worthy IBM tape drives. Each of them had a nice, clean brushed aluminum interior panel that I salvaged. They'll be excellent chassis material. A little work with bandsaw, file and bender should make them just what the doctor ordered. If they bend well, it looks like they may be good material for the angles to support the boards, too.

I'll keep working on the design of the chassis until I get it so it's easy to make and just right for the car. That means lots of work in Sketchup, because it helps me visualize how things go together. It's nice to test fit parts and find mistakes on the computer before making the parts and finding mistakes on the assembly bench.

Let's Skip the Sheet Metal Prototype
I usually build my initial parts in cardstock (non-corrugated cardboard) and assemble them with tape. Then, once I have a workable prototype, I build a copy of it in light sheet metal and install it, and then I produce the final parts. But Sketchup works so well that, as soon as I get a plan I like well enough to put it in the car, I'm going make the cardstock exterior shape (just to make sure it fits in the dash), and then go right to my first chassis.

More Sketchup pix are on the way as soon as I finish the next round of modifications.

Congrats on the redesign.... I'm not sure how you bezel goes in, but why not have the PC in the case you designed, but then make a mounting bracket on the bezel. So when you take off the Bezel the screen comes off with it. I did something similar but for oposite reasons. I had nothing to mount my screen to, since my HU bay is empty. I made a special mounting kit and attached it to that. I left enough slack with all the cabling so that when i pull the bezel away I simply reach back and disconnect the Lilliput connector and 2 wires which run the screen built in fan.

I have a question for you though, since your talking about metal. As you know I built my rear center console out of MDF. The sides though are too thick and would not leave enough room for fiberglassing. I wanted to replace the sides with thinner MDF but worried that people leaning on it over time will break the unit. I have decided to make the side a metal, but not sure what to use. What type of metal should I use for the sides? Also should I just build the whole thing out of metal? A hybrid MDF and Metal would be easy because it can come apart easily. All Metal would be hard to take apart and be costly, but which method would you do?

Below are pix of the mounting system and of the center console.

Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

Congrats on the redesign.... I'm not sure how you bezel goes in, but why not have the PC in the case you designed, but then make a mounting bracket on the bezel. So when you take off the Bezel the screen comes off with it. I did something similar but for oposite reasons. I had nothing to mount my screen to, since my HU bay is empty. I made a special mounting kit and attached it to that. I left enough slack with all the cabling so that when i pull the bezel away I simply reach back and disconnect the Lilliput connector and 2 wires which run the screen built in fan.

I suppose I could hang the surprisingly light Lilliput from the bezel, but that would run counter to the philosophy of the bezel's designers. The Scion bezel is relatively light, and made of polyethylene. While there are some switches and controls in it, it's primarily just a bezel -- a cosmetic cover. Remove two screws under the climate control knobs, pull on the bottom of the bezel, and it pops loose. Pivot it up a little, detach three cable systems, and pivot it up the rest of the way; it's just hooked in at the top.

I chose not to test its structural strength. I don't want to do all my bezel modification work and then have it warp under the load of the monitor, so I won't change the bezel from decorative to load-bearing.

I plan to use the original system of attaching bezel to dash. I want to build the LCD panel surround so the bezel will *almost* touch the bezel of the Lillliput, which I'm installing case and all.

No matter what, I'll have to do some fancy plastic welding to make the bezel look OEM. I do have an exit plan if the bezel work is too frustrating or it just never looks good enough: I'll just take the whole thing to Nexson and say, "Here you go. Please make it look like it belongs there."

Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

I have a question for you though, since your talking about metal. As you know I built my rear center console out of MDF. The sides though are too thick and would not leave enough room for fiberglassing. I wanted to replace the sides with thinner MDF but worried that people leaning on it over time will break the unit. I have decided to make the side a metal, but not sure what to use. What type of metal should I use for the sides? Also should I just build the whole thing out of metal? A hybrid MDF and Metal would be easy because it can come apart easily. All Metal would be hard to take apart and be costly, but which method would you do?

MDF
I like to use MDF; we've built a lot of furniture with it, and it's easy to work with. But while I think MDF is great for furniture, I don't much like it for cars. It's heavy, it responds to vibration by coming apart, and it absorbs moisture. For something like a computer case or a speaker box, where the parts can be glued together, it's good at maintaining its structural integrity. But screws alone are an invitation, over a long time, for self-disassembly.

Where hinges are installed, for instance, we find the screws eventually wallow out if they aren't kept good and tight. I can't count the number of friends' kitchen cabinet doors where that happened, and I've fixed them by putting in the next larger screw diameter and tightening everything back up.

MDF isn't all that strong in an overstress situation, either. If you have a hinged lid and passengers are careless, the hinge screws can fracture out. Luckily, you can glue it all back together, let it sit in place, and re-mount the hinges.

I think there are four real secrets to MDF:

1. drill for every fastener; don't just use drywall screws and expect them to make a hole for you; they'll fracture the panel, especially in edge joints.
2. brace any areas that might be stressed, such as wide panels and places where careless users might damage your work.
3. use a very good wood glue; Elmer's Carpenter's glue is good, and Gorilla or Elmer's urethane glues are really good.
4. make sure joints to be glued are a perfect match; don't fill gaps with glue.

You went for MDF in the original console, and it may be just fine; you're already skilled at building with it.

Metal
Or go have an adventure in sheet metal. If you have the tools, it's amazingly easy. You'll need a bender and a file and a few other tools like snips or a saw (or both).

I'm pretty new at bending metal -- I've only been doing it for a year. I bought a never-used 30-inch bender in a garage sale a few years ago, on the off chance that I'd want to use it. When I started the carPC project, I decided to give it a try. I followed that up by buying a punch; the saga of getting it while I was looking for a way to make slots is detailed in this thread. The $40 or so that I spent on the punch was a great investment.

I've built several things of increasing complexity, and learned a lot about what we can and can't do in sheet metal. If I were buiding a console for the Scion, I'd use sheet metal, probably 20-gauge or even 18-gauge steel. But I'm no expert when it comes to choosing the lightest or strongest material; I just use whatever I have around; I calculate strength with the TLAR method: That Looks About Right. Old computer cases can provide pre-finished material; now that I work in a place that sometimes scraps old mainframe and midrange systems, there's a lot of nice, clean used sheet metal available.

Steel -- or aluminum, if you have some around -- can be fastened so it stays together, but can be disassembled as necessary. Pop rivets work well in some applications, although the back of the installed rivet is ugly, and you have to drill them out if you want to change anything. Disassembling old computer cases can provide a wealth of screws, or you can go to some specialty hardware stores and find anything you'd need. Rivnuts are really slick -- they're nuts you apply permanently to a panel, and they go on just like pop rivets; you just screw other panels to them, and they make the panels easy to disassemble.

When I was exploring the ways to build with sheet metal, I took apart or looked inside dozens of sheet metal cases and cabinets and housings. I wanted to see how they were designed and built, to figure how they were strengthened, and to figure out fabricating techniques. Engineers tend to look at the work of other engineers and use the good ideas. I was surprised how easy it is to make a piece of light sheet metal into a very strong box.

While it would be nice to have a spot welder or a MIG/TIG system, welding capability isn't necessary.

If you build in metal, take a close look at the way desktop server cases are built with a structural frame and easily-removable shell (some of the early ones were build to MilSpec, I swear -- if you could climb inside them, you'd have a bomb shelter). Such a case would be a pretty good pattern for your console, especially if you wanted to add padding to the outside. Server cases come in all sorts of shapes and sizes; you might modify a scrapped one or even use it as the basis for your console. Find one the right shape, and your mounts are already built in. Bolt that top padding right to the shell, and away you go.

And don't go buy a case. Go to your local compute shop and tell them you'd like to get an old dead case. If their shop is anything like ours, they have bunches in the back room. The price for the case will be right, because they're probably going to throw it away in the long run, so anything they charge is pure profit for them.

Hybrid -- Wood and Metal
You could just put new sheet metal sides on the console, but the existing sides may be probably structural. In that case, you'll have to figure out how to make the sheet metal sides strong enough to add structure. If you're covering it with vinyl, you could rivet in some bracing. No matter what, you'll have to determine how to fasten the metal to the wood, and still have it look good. Cupped washers would probably do a good job, and you'd only need a few, so they wouldn't be very visible.

Do the Research
If you decide to use sheet metal or something else where you have little or no experience, read in Mp3Car and other sites before you build. The fantastic thing about MP3Car is that I get to learn from the mistakes and successes of others, so I eliminate a whole range of mistakes. I get to make new ones.

For instance, I built an LCD panel mount out of unpainted low-carbon steel sheet metal. When I finished it, I put off the painting and went on to other tasks. When I came back to it a couple of months later, I found the Florida humidity in my garage had given it an almost complete coat of very fine, surprisingly deep corrosion. Oops.

Do the Planning
No matter what your project, sketch it out and look for problems. Using Sketchup has helped me avoid several conflicts and see better ways to fabricate or attach parts. Just a paper sketchpad is a great tool for visualizing your final product. Pictures communicate better than words, even when we're just talking to ourselves.

Overbuild
In most things I've built, I tend to go for a little structural overkill; I don't want my stuff to fail in use. Each project teaches me things I use on the next project. One of the lessons I learn frequently is that I overbuilt the previous version. But my stuff doesn't break.

Keep having fun . . .

Thanx this was very useful. I did find out about the screw issues the hard way, when I built console 1. With console 2 I used screws called MDF screws that have a special tip. Not only is it easier to screw in, but they hold very very tight. Now when I say I want the sides to metal, I mean metal, lol. I want it to be the hardest metal, weight isn't a concern, as long as it isn't bendable and its thin. When it comes to the cutting, I was hoping to have a company do it for me, so That it is cut exactly per side. I guess I can also have them pre drill the holes also. I am going to keep the middle MDF though, it will make it easy for me to take apart. As far as the covering, the whole reason for me thinning out the sides is so that Nexson can create a fiberglass shell for it. I feel that wrapping it in vinyl just wont look OEM. So Ive opted on fiberglassing. I may even do some type of hybrid Vinyl and Fiberglass setup. In the end though, I think Fiberglass will look the best. Thanx so much for your advice!

I know this is a dumb question, but is there a way to maybe vinyl the sides for the texture (I have vinyl that matches the texture throughout the car) and then apply some kind of clear coat to make it hard as a rock?

Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

Thanx this was very useful. I did find out about the screw issues the hard way, when I built console 1. With console 2 I used screws called MDF screws that have a special tip. Not only is it easier to screw in, but they hold very very tight. Now when I say I want the sides to metal, I mean metal, lol. I want it to be the hardest metal, weight isn't a concern, as long as it isn't bendable and its thin. When it comes to the cutting, I was hoping to have a company do it for me, so That it is cut exactly per side. I guess I can also have them pre drill the holes also. I am going to keep the middle MDF though, it will make it easy for me to take apart. As far as the covering, the whole reason for me thinning out the sides is so that Nexson can create a fiberglass shell for it. I feel that wrapping it in vinyl just wont look OEM. So Ive opted on fiberglassing. I may even do some type of hybrid Vinyl and Fiberglass setup. In the end though, I think Fiberglass will look the best. Thanx so much for your advice!

I know this is a dumb question, but is there a way to maybe vinyl the sides for the texture (I have vinyl that matches the texture throughout the car) and then apply some kind of clear coat to make it hard as a rock?

I'm sure there's a way to do it, and it's probably something Nexson can help you with. But, for my money, hard surfaces inside the cabin make for a less-comfortable experience than soft surfaces. The hard surfaces can be echo-y, too, reducing the quality of the listening experience in your vehicle. You could pad those sides with foam just like any console, and cover them with the vinyl material you already have.

You say you want "hard" steel, but I think you mean stiff. In steel, hardness is a matter of impact resistance, and material with increased hardness makes for lousy bending, because it isn't as malleable; it fractures instead of bending.

For your steel sides, you don't need to go to 1/8-inch plate steel (although you certainly could). Going back to the old computer case, you'd be surprised how strong the material is; it's probably 20-gauge, or -- in some of the really old ones -- 18-gauge. Remember that 16-gauge is .060 inch thick -- that's 1/16 of an inch, and that's heavy stuff. 18-gauge or even 20-gauge should work just fine. By going to the thinner material with a foam and vinyl cover, you'll have enough strength, more cabin space, and a very occupant-friendly interior.

Any material up to about 1/8 inch would be workable with home shop tools -- a saber saw and a hand drill. If you need bends, you won't be bending the heavy stuff in your own shop; most home benders will go up to maybe 20-gauge or 18-gauge. To bend heavy panels, you'll want to look for a metal fabrication place near you, and catch them on a Saturday. They'll often do a couple bends as a favor, or for a $10 bill. If you make bends on opposite sides of a panel, be sure the length dimension you want is clearly marked as the distance between the flanges or an outside dimension that includes the flanges.

I recommend drilling your own holes after getting everything else in place, or being 100% positive about their locations. If you have someone fabricate these panels for you, they generally don't make free second versions when the mistakes are yours.

I like to make my own stuff; that way, I'm the only one who knows how many times I screwed up on the way to success (although I often write about the errors here). And that's one of the things I love about Sketchup. It lets me catch many of my own errors before going public.

Originally Posted by rdholtz

I'm sure there's a way to do it, and it's probably something Nexson can help you with. But, for my money, hard surfaces inside the cabin make for a less-comfortable experience than soft surfaces. The hard surfaces can be echo-y, too, reducing the quality of the listening experience in your vehicle. You could pad those sides with foam just like any console, and cver them with the vinyl material you already have.

You say you want "hard" steel, but Ithink you mean stiff. In steel, hardness is a matter of impact resistance, and material with increased hardness makes for lousy bending, because it isn't as malleable; it fractures instead of bending.

For your steel sides, you don't need to go to 1/8-inch plate steel (although you certainly could). Going back to the old computer case, you'd be surprised how strong the material is; it's probably 20-gauge, or -- in some of the really old ones -- 18-gauge. Remember that 16-gauge is .060 inch thick -- that's 1/16 of an inch, and that's heavy stuff. 18-gauge or even 20-gauge should work just fine. By going to the thinner material with a foam and vinyl cover, you'll have enough strength, more cabin space, and a very occupant-friendly interior.

Any material up to about 1/8 inch would be workable with home shop tools -- a saber saw and a hand drill. If you need bends, you won't be bending the heavy stuff in your own shop; most home benders will go up to maybe 20-gauge or 18-gauge. To bend heavy panels, you'll want to look for a metal fabrication place near you, and catch them on a Saturday. They'll often do a couple bends as a favor, or for a $10 bill. If you make bends on opposite sides of a panel, be sure the length dimension you want is clearly marked as the distance between the flanges or an outside dimension that includes the flanges.

I recommend drilling your own holes after getting everything else in place, or being 100% positive about their locations. If you have someone fabricate these panels for you, they generally don't make free second versions when the mistakes are yours.

I like to make my own stuff; that way, I'm the only one who knows how many times I screwed up on the way to success (although I often write about the errors here). And that's one of the things I love about Sketchup. It lets me catch many of my own errors before going public.

LoL, I forgot to mention the arm rest will be cushion, infact its a part from the original seat that use to be there. It was to much of a mission to make something for that area, plus its always cool to reuse. I Like to build my own stuff too, but I know my limits. I'd rather pay someone to do it, then do it over over and over, and waste about the same amount of money!

Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

LoL, I forgot to mention the arm rest will be cushion, infact its a part from the original seat that use to be there. It was to much of a mission to make something for that area, plus its always cool to reuse. I Like to build my own stuff too, but I know my limits. I'd rather pay someone to do it, then do it over over and over, and waste about the same amount of money!

Well, I like to build my own stuff because it keeps pushing my limits out. Instead of paying someone else, I spend the money on tools, do some background reading, and give it a try. => I wind up with new skills.

Version 7 of the Chassis

I've made a lot of changes over the several-week life of this design. In the latest version, the changes are more subtle -- the flanges are different, and I've added the angle supports for the mainboard and power supply unit. I'm pretty close to finished on this one. I've done cardboard mockups of the left side -- which has the tightest fit -- and gotten the design to where it works. I added a notch in the bottom panel for the existing wire bundle in the dash.

Here are a couple of JPGs exported from Sketchup:

The first one looks very similar to the last version, but the top and bottom now have flanges that attach to the sides, and the end panel has flanges that attach to each of the other panels. The end panel sits entirely inside the four other panels. The monitor support sits outside of that. The angle on the sides has been refined and changed slightly.

Click images to enlarge.

In this shot, you can see the angle mounts for the mainboard and the PSU. If you look closely at the end panel, you'll see a gap in the side flanges on the end panel; those gaps are there to let me get the bender in for the bends on the top and bottom edges.

In this last shot, you can see the cutout in the bottom panel. I'll cover all of those edges in split small plastic tubing to keep the panels from wearing the wires. Another simple cure for that is to paint the edges with a few coats of Liquid Electrical Tape or PlastiDip plastic dip for tool handles. Both are available at Home Depot and hardware stores.

Now it's time to build the final cardstock mockup of the whole chassis. Then it's time to add the top and bottom panels to form a box in this shape. I'll make that one last check to be sure it fits in the dash before I go bend metal.

Originally Posted by rdholtz

Version 7 of the Chassis

I've made a lot of changes over the several-week life of this design. In the latest version, the changes are more subtle -- the flanges are different, and I've added the angle supports for the mainboard and power supply unit. I'm pretty close to finished on this one. I've done cardboard mockups of the left side -- which has the tightest fit -- and gotten the design to where it works. I added a notch in the bottom panel for the existing wire bundle in the dash.

Here are a couple of JPGs exported from Sketchup:

The first one looks very similar to the last version, but the top and bottom now have flanges that attach to the sides, and the end panel has flanges that attach to each of the other panels. The end panel sits entirely inside the four other panels. The monitor support sits outside of that. The angle on the sides has been refined and changed slightly.

Click images to enlarge.

In this shot, you can see the angle mounts for the mainboard and the PSU. If you look closely at the end panel, you'll see a gap in the side flanges on the end panel; those gaps are there to let me get the bender in for the bends on the top and bottom edges.

In this last shot, you can see the cutout in the bottom panel. I'll cover all of those edges in split small plastic tubing to keep the panels from wearing the wires. Another simple cure for that is to paint the edges with a few coats of Liquid Electrical Tape or PlastiDip plastic dip for tool handles. Both are available at Home Depot and hardware stores.

Now it's time to build the final cardstock mockup of the whole chassis. Then it's time to add the top and bottom panels to form a box in this shape. I'll make that one last check to be sure it fits in the dash before I go bend metal.

See now that I see the area that holds the MoBo and what not, I see how it works. I do think the dual fan setup is perfect. One fan wouldnt have been enough. I dont think you need anymore ventilation, the back open area should be enough. Have you taken cables and connectors sticking out of the back of the MoBo into your design?