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Thread: VOLVO S80 CarPC Work in progress

  1. #121
    Maximum Bitrate Dave One's Avatar
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    Hi there VolvoCarPC, I've decided that the secondary battery is definitely required for my build (largely inspired by your fantastic write up ). The only thing I'm struggling with is the alternator relay control line. Is it to break the relay when cranking, thus isolating the two batteries? Or is it to make the relay when the alternator is providing a charge, thus charging the secondary battery?

    BTW, this write up is fantastic.

    Thanks,
    Dave

    Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk
    Vauxhall Astra SXi Car PC installed.

  2. #122
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    The alternator controlled battery isolator (aka the UIBI) is ON when the charge-light is OFF.
    For most vehicles the charge light is OFF during cranking (because the alternator isn't yet producing output) though I know of some exceptions (like my ~90A off a Subaru) that extinguish during cranking, hence paralleling my 2 batteries.
    In my case I'm not concerned because I use copious wire gauge and a 60A else 140A relay and a 50A self resetting circuit breaker at each end. With a mere 140A reduction starting motor, the breakers don't trip for normal cranking. And I figure it shares the cranking stress across two similar rated cranking batteries, hence better battery life - though I would prefer parallel cranking be manual or linked to STart only - ie, I prefer charge-lights that stay on during cranking (hence the UIBI/relay/isolator is off).

    For those with a charge light that extinguishes during cranking, I'd prefer adding a changeover or SPDT relay energised by the cranking/starter signal to #86 with #87a from the alternator D+ or L charge-light terminal, and its #30 to the UIBI coil 86 {with UIBI 85 to GND; and its 30 & 86 to respective battery's end fuse/CB)} so that cranking breaks the alternator D+/L to UIBI/isolator wire.
    Else ensure copious fuse, relay and cable capacity.
    Last edited by OldSpark; 10-30-2013 at 07:56 AM.

  3. #123
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    Sorry for been late. I was very crazy week and I had no free time at all.
    OK, I see there are things that you miss, so I'll try to explain. First of all sorry for my English .... and second I'm still a newbie. Listen the advices from the old school boys here
    OK it's a BAD idea two different types batteries to be left paralleled while they are not charging. Why - lets just shorty say - one will destroy the other.
    Now your question was: do I separate them while cranking or just split them when alternator is charging. - I'll be honest. I tried but didn't succeed to check is my alternator sending charging signal while cranking of not. My car starts up very easy so the cranking time is less than a second and I really couldn't tell when exactly the relay between the two batteries engages, BUT it is BAD IDEA (in most cases) to parallel the two batteries while cranking. Why - well you want a stable stress-free power for all the electronics you retrofit in the car. If you parallel the two batteries while cranking you аre helping your starter, but not protecting your extra electronics.
    That's it. If there is something you don't get - just ask. OldSpark seems to be reading this threat, so you're in the best hands

    Ok, some new stuff here
    My car is '00 S80 and the lights for the rear licence plate are from the old style. I searched a lot but found only one place to buy. The seller was in Australia and refuses to ship to Bulgaria. Sure, why not - we are theorists. Hey, learn the world map - Bulgaria is part of EU!!! OK, maybe some of the best money fakers and hackers are Bulgarians, but they are a few persons, not the whole nation.
    Sorry for that, but...

    hexxamillion, thanks man! Your thread give me some ideas, and your feedback about these cameras forced me to change the strategy. I decided I'll build my own custom licence place light-cam. Here is how:











    OK, but what about the light itself? )










    I did the same LED MOD to the other bulb, so that the light from bot be equal:


    End result in totally dark parking lot (no street lamps at all):

    Some info for you:
    The drill whole for the camera is 18.5mm
    Camera is 120 deg angle.
    CCD (or it is told to be).
    It looks real watertight (excluding the connectors).
    Quality is good, but that's my first car cam, so I got nothing to compare with.

    How to make a difference in ebay between these new and the old ones which are CMOS and with 21-22 drill whole?
    New:


    Old:


    Even while looking thumbnails you can see if the lens is out of the sphere or is integrated. New cams are smaller and that forces them to locate the lens "externally"
    I hope I'll be in help for some of you just like hexxamillion opened my eyes for these cameras Thanks, man!



    Another not-so-important thing but nice when talking about stock view install:
    I was thinking what if I need to enter the LCD's settings menu? I need to use the supplied keyboard or the IrDA. Well 4-5 buttons are hard to be made to look stock, but what about the IrDA's LED?
    My genuine head unit has a spot for IrDA but I have no remote for it, soooooooooo







    I was thinking of 3 pin fast plug, but at the end decided to use a USB cord.




    Well this couldn't be more stock view

    And hey - this is the first time I made a test run with the PC. Well the car was (and still is not) completely assembled. My remote controller stack was not configured with the frontend and the were no audio connections, but that was a test run!!!! A year after I started... huh...
    My worklog: VOLVO S80 CarPC

  4. #124
    Variable Bitrate camo.b's Avatar
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    Just a thought on the aussie shipping problem you had....if you need parts redirected to your country in the future I'm happy to help out a fellow enthusiast

  5. #125
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    Ditto! I wonder what the objection is - we have laws against discrimination (not that it covers that instance, but not all Aussies are that aware...).

  6. #126
    Maximum Bitrate Dave One's Avatar
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    And I'd be willing to assist if from the UK .

    From my Sony Xperia
    Vauxhall Astra SXi Car PC installed.

  7. #127
    Variable Bitrate camo.b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSpark View Post
    Ditto! I wonder what the objection is - we have laws against discrimination (not that it covers that instance, but not all Aussies are that aware...).
    I think I read somewhere here that there are certain places paypal wont cover the seller for any shipping/delivery or lack of problems....could be a local postal service issue not necessarily shifty buyers that we are scared of.

  8. #128
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    Davefocus, if there is similar scenarium, I'll ask you for assistance. I often use a courier UK-BG and he is charging me one GBP for a kg, which is good offer. I've even transported а pallet and the charge was nice, too. The bad thing in this case was that the courier refused to arrange the import taxes for me. However I have rear view cam, so everything is fine. Tonight I'll write you a PM about the things you asked me.

    Thanks for all of you for proposing helping me. I appreciate it.
    My worklog: VOLVO S80 CarPC

  9. #129
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    VolvoCarPC - Maybe disable the injectors or ignition and crank for 5 to 10 seconds to see if the charge light extinguishes.

    And re your reply #123. Thanks for the compliments, and the great summary/understanding of paralleling batteries.
    But to clarify one part - noting how highly dependent it is on (1) the intention, & (2) isolator ratings...
    Quote Originally Posted by VolvoCarPC View Post
    ... BUT it is BAD IDEA (in most cases) to parallel the two batteries while cranking. Why - well you want a stable stress-free power for all the electronics you retrofit in the car. If you parallel the two batteries while cranking you аre helping your starter, but not protecting your extra electronics.
    Actually you are correct in that if you want uncorrupted electronics, you place them on the 2nd battery and leave that isolated during cranking.
    But for electronics & loads still connected to the main battery it'd be better paralleling the 2nd battery (assuming it has a higher voltage than the main battery's cranking voltage).
    Paralleling is better for the starter (and the main battery's electrics) because of the higher voltage, and it's better for the main battery as it supplies less current. Some consider it better for the alternator as it will have a lower peak recharge current, but since I use quality alternators (Hitachi et al), I don't consider that a strain in any way (alternators should be self limiting).

    The reason I often reckon NOT to parallel during cranking is because the interlink/isolator may not be rated high enough. Many might use relatively low current links/isolators - eg, 30A or 50A - which may blow if sharing cranking current.
    That may be ok if using (self resetting) circuit breakers, but not fuses (if one fuse blows in a cranking or over-load situation, arguably BOTH should be replaced).
    I consider self resetting CBs up to 50A as being practical since they are small and about ~$10 or less each. Above that gets big, and difficult else expensive for self resetters. (If you don't have self-resetting breakers, you should have an alarm to warn of open fuses/breakers if the load is critical - eg fridges. And those alarms can be trickier than normal blown-fuse or no-voltage alarms.)

    The problem with paralleled cranking is the current involved. The design should allow for the 2nd battery to supply FULL cranking current. But since starter motors are usually well over 200A, that is a "big" design.
    In reality, a max of half the cranking current is generally ok. IE - assuming both batteries are at fairly matched (SOC & internal resistance) they will each contribute half the starter current. But the 2nd battery has 2 fuses/breakers to go thru plus the isolator/relay plus the interlink cable - thus more resistance and hence less current.
    And if using a much smaller battery as many here do (eg, 4AH or 7AH & maybe 15AH for PCs etc), then I don't suggest parallel cranking except in emergencies. Although the smaller 2nd battery takes some strain off the main, the high current probably destroys the smaller 2nd battery more.

    In my vehicle I don't care if they parallel crank. I have a ~40AH main battery (wet cell) and 2nd batteries that vary from wet & AGM with ~30AH to 70AH capacity.
    I have a reduction starter which normally consumes 140A. Assuming matched batteries, that's 70A from each tho the interlink resistance reduces the 2nd battery's current. And if the 2nd battery is flatter than the main, the 2nd's current contribution will also be less. (Of course I may have run lights or radio off the main battery with the engine off in which case the 2nd battery might supply more current than the main...)
    But lets assume my interlink carries 70A if parallel cranking.
    My lowest rated interlink component is the 2 breakers with a 50A rating. (The relay and cabling far exceed 50A.)
    My 50A breakers should handle 70A for at least 10 seconds and probably about 20 seconds before tripping. Hence they'll probably never trip since my car takes 5 secs at most to start (yeah, it has a carby).
    But even if they trip, so what? - they will reset automatically to enable normal charging (when the engine is running).
    Even with a standard ~250A starter I would not worry about parallel cranking since WHILE they are paralleled, there is less strain/damage to the main battery. (My 50A breakers should take between 3 to 8 seconds to trip at 125A)


    In summary:
    Parallel cranking is better for "main battery" electrics, the starter, and the main battery. (However if the 2nd battery is significantly smaller than the required cranking battery or main battery, do NOT parallel crank as the damage (strain) to the 2nd battery far outweighs any saving on the main battery.)

    Many isolators and interlinks do not have half the cranking current capacity let alone the ideal full cranking current capacity. (The latter assumes no main battery, or that if the main battery is faulty or discharged, it does NOT take current during cranking. During cranking a battery might typically drop 1V to 2V and maybe down to 9V or 8V and ANY open-circuit (or low load) battery at those voltages is stuffed or way out of spec - ie, it would take a collapsed cell or a discharge >>50% to cause the main to be "charged" by the 2nd battery during cranking.)

    And of course if you do not want the cranking voltage dips for electronics off the 2nd battery, keep it isolated during cranking.
    Last edited by OldSpark; 11-04-2013 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #130
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    I had a request (in PM) by Davefocus to explain in short, but easy to understand post what I've done.

    Well, I drow something ...


    In my case:
    1. Main battery - 72 Ah
    2. Second battery - YUASA 12V 12 Ah
    3. Relay - 12V 120A
    4. Cable used between the two batteries -14mm (at 1m length it means it is able to handle 100A) (or maybe it was 10mm ... check my older posts... but it can handle 100A)
    5. Fuses - 80A

    Note/advices:
    1. Check with multimeter how the thin wire from alternator behaves, and then make your design
    2. Place the two big fuses as close to the batteries as possible.
    3. Calculate (ask for assistance) what battery suit your needs
    4. Calculate (ask for assistance) the fuses, cable and wires. The fuse should be the less rated thing, so that it blow first. That's the idea.
    5. Find the best location for the second battery knowing this: 1. short link cables is better; 2. too hot is no good; 3. secure, but not totally sealed place. 4. Easy access for maintenance/monitoring; 5. do your best to ensure no unwanted shorts are possible, even when some repair jobs on the car are made - if you live your car in a shop they won't know what you've done, so think about this...

    At the end, Davefocus, give me a link to your build, and tell us what are you going to power, where your main battery is (in engine bay, under rear seat, in the trunk). What do you expect from your second battery - PC to survive cranking, PC to be working while car is off (how long), just to avoid flat main battery, to have some devices powered 24/7.
    In your PM you mentioned "I'm wanting the second battery purely to maintain PC operation whilst cranking as my M2-ATX doesn't always manage to do that. I was considering a Yuasa NP12-12 with something like a Berlingo self switching voltage sensing split charge relay (ebay number 370837856033)"
    It's 30A !!! Mind that! You MUST ensure it wont engage while cranking.
    Yuasa NP12-12 - I use just the same. So far so good.
    In case you need it for preventing the PC from restart whilst cranking, you need to be 100% sure about how exactly the BERLINGO SELF SWITCHING, VOLTAGE SENSING SPLIT CHARGE RELAY is working.

    What I would do - I'd get one 100-120A relay (item 190923536743 for example) and make the alternator connection. You could add one small relay cutting the alt wire connected to normally closed which will be controlled by the cranking so that there is absolutely no way the two batteries be paralleled before the car has start.
    Would you like me to correct the scheme adding this small relay? Oh there I miss two fuses in both ends of the new part of the alt cable ...


    P.S.
    OK, I did it. I corrected the first scheme and did the one I was talking about. Here it is:


    It's your turn - give us some more info so that we could be in help.
    Last edited by VolvoCarPC; 11-04-2013 at 04:54 PM.
    My worklog: VOLVO S80 CarPC

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